Echad - Shema Trinity

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Wootah
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Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/echad_259.htm

When the Bible says God is one it uses the word Echad.

A quick search for the word Echad comes up with other uses.

Scanning through that first link which example convinced you that 'one' can mean complex unities such as one flesh or one people.

Does this end the debate for you that the shema can encompass the Trinity?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #2

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Wootah wrote: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/echad_259.htm

When the Bible says God is one it uses the word Echad.

A quick search for the word Echad comes up with other uses.

Scanning through that first link which example convinced you that 'one' can mean complex unities such as one flesh or one people.

Does this end the debate for you that the shema can encompass the Trinity?

Why on earth should it?
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #3

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Wootah wrote: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/echad_259.htm

When the Bible says God is one it uses the word Echad.

A quick search for the word Echad comes up with other uses.

Scanning through that first link which example convinced you that 'one' can mean complex unities such as one flesh or one people.

Does this end the debate for you that the shema can encompass the Trinity?
Why on earth should it?
Well, it should end the debate on whether it can encompass more than one person or not. I hope there was never any debate on that, because not allowing for that possibility is just wooden-headed, grammatically. Not that anybody here is "wooden-headed," but... well, just I'm just sayin.' :)

But I agree that it won't end the debate on whether it does or not. But that's okay. One great day, there will be no more debate.

Grace and peace to you both.

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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

The trinity (corrects me if I'm wrong) purposes all three individuals who are equal in power, authority age and rank. And that the holy spirit is a person.

It seems to me pointing out different individuals can be united is like saying grass is green and my my car is also green, so I hope that puts to rest any discussion whether my car is grass!
There are I think a number of more important factors to consider.


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Post #5

Post by Wootah »

Eloi wrote: [Replying to Wootah]

I would say a blasphemy could be calling God THREE when the Shemah, Jesus and all Scriptures explicitly say is ONE.
It might help Eloi to know this.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #6

Post by Elijah John »

Wootah wrote: https://biblehub.com/hebrew/echad_259.htm

When the Bible says God is one it uses the word Echad.

A quick search for the word Echad comes up with other uses.

Scanning through that first link which example convinced you that 'one' can mean complex unities such as one flesh or one people.

Does this end the debate for you that the shema can encompass the Trinity?
NOW, you're talkin'. ;) The "one people" or "one flesh" argument is actually a pretty good one. Is "Echad" ever actually used in those contexts?

Still, the absolute monotheism of the writers of the Sh'ma favors a singular unity as opposed to a compound unity.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #7

Post by tigger2 »

[Replying to post 1 by Wootah]

ECHAD ("0NE")


Echad (‘Plural’ Oneness) and Yachid (‘Absolute’ Oneness)

Deut. 6:4 - “YHWH [Jehovah] our God, YHWH [Jehovah] one [Echad[]
This is rendered in several ways. (I prefer "Jehovah [is] our God, Jehovah alone.") Some trinitarians misinterpret this. They usually say something like this: “At Deut. 6:4 the word ‘one’ is echad in Biblical Hebrew, which means ‘composite unity’ or ‘plural oneness’.�

The examples that they cite which are supposed to verify this understanding for echad are not evidence for their interpretation.

In addition to insisting that echad means “plural oneness� some of them also insist that, if God had intended the meaning of “absolute oneness� (singleness, only one individual) at Deut. 6:4, he would have used the word yachid (or yacheed).

So let’s examine the intended meanings of echad and yachid and the scriptures cited above.

First, it certainly wouldn’t be surprising to find that some noted trinitarian authority of Biblical Hebrew had written somewhere that echad means “united or plural oneness.� but I haven’t found one yet!

Here is what I have found written about echad by authorities on Biblical Hebrew:

The only definition given for echad in the very trinitarian New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance is: “a prim[ary] card[inal] number; one�. We find no “plural oneness� there!

The respected Biblical Hebrew authority, Gesenius, says that echad is “a numeral having the power of an adjective, one.� He then lists the various meanings of echad as:
“(1) The same,�
“(2) first,�
“(3) some one,�
“(4) it acts the part of an indefinite article,�
b]“(5) one only of its kind,� [/b]
“(6) when repeated [echad ... echad] ‘one ... another’,�
“(7) [K echad] AS one man.� [The initial consonant of this word, “K,� (or כ in Hebrew) actually means “as� or “like,� so in this special form the meaning is close to that of a plural oneness. But this is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 !! ]

Gesenius also lists a plural form of the word achadim which means “joined in one, united.� This, too, is not the form used at Deut. 6:4 which context shows, instead, to have meaning #5 above. - See Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament, #259, Baker Book House. Surely, if God (or Jehovah) were really a union of persons, a united one, this form which truly means “united one� would have been used to describe “Him� repeatedly in the Holy Scriptures. But it and all other words with similar meanings were never used for God (or Jehovah)!

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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #8

Post by tigger2 »

[Replying to post 7 by tigger2]

Yachid

A few trinitarians insist that not only does echad mean “plural oneness,� but that, if singleness were intended by the Bible writer, the Hebrew word yachid would have been used at Deut. 6:4.

Here is how it was presented to me by one trinitarian:

“The word for ‘one’ in this great declaration [Deut. 6:4] is not Yachid which is an absolute oneness but rather echad which means ‘united one.’ Had the Holy Spirit desired to state absolute mathematical oneness in this all-important declaration, He could have easily used the word yachid, couldn’t He?�

We have already seen the falsity of the “echad-means-’plural-oneness’� idea. But what about yachid? Did the Bible writers really use it whenever they meant “absolute mathematical oneness�? We have already seen that they really used echad for “absolute mathematical oneness,� and a good concordance will show they did this consistently—many hundreds of times!

Yachid, on the other hand, is only used about 12 times in the entire Bible and then only in a narrow, specific sense.

The Old Testament language authority, Gesenius, tells us that yachid is used in three very specialized ways: (1) “only� but primarily in the sense of “only begotten�! - Gen. 22:2, 12, 16; Jer. 6:26; and Zech. 12:10. (2) “solitary� but with the connotation of “forsaken� or “wretched� ! - Ps. 25:16; 68:6. (3) As yachidah (feminine form) meaning “only one� as something most dear and used “poet[ically] for ‘life’ - Ps. 22:20; 35:17.� - p. 345 b.

We find yachid is never used to describe God anywhere in the entire Bible! But it is used to describe Isaac in his prefigured representation of the Messiah (and ‘only-begotten’): Gen. 22:2, 12, 16. It is also used at Judges 11:34 for an only-begotten child. The ancient Greek Septuagint translates yachid at Judges 11:34 as monogenes (“only-begotten�): the same NT Greek word repeatedly used to describe Christ (even in his pre-human heavenly existence - 1 John 4:9). Monogenes, however, like the Hebrew yachid, is never used to describe the only true God, Jehovah (who is the Father alone).

So, if Jehovah were to describe himself as “forsaken� or “wretched,� or were speaking poetically about his “dear life,� or were describing himself as the “only-begotten son� (which he never does anywhere in the Bible!), then he might have used yachid.

Deut. 6:4 tells us Jehovah is God alone. Otherwise the Bible writer would have used a word which actually meant 'united oneness.' And if echad really meant this then all the many Trinitarian-translated and edited Bibles would have CERTAINLY translated in a Trinitarian manner at Deut. 6:4!!

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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #9

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 7 by tigger2]

I'm not against your rendering of the Shema. It still incorporates the Trinity. Is there a way you can express the Shema that matches the hebrew text but denies the Trinity?
First, it certainly wouldn’t be surprising to find that some noted trinitarian authority of Biblical Hebrew had written somewhere that echad means “united or plural oneness.� but I haven’t found one yet!
Obviously you like the argument from authority fallacy but let's go down that path. If I find a Christian Scholar will you publically recant this on the forum?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Echad - Shema Trinity

Post #10

Post by Wootah »

Elijah John wrote: NOW, you're talkin'. ;) The "one people" or "one flesh" argument is actually a pretty good one. Is "Echad" ever actually used in those contexts?

Still, the absolute monotheism of the writers of the Sh'ma favors a singular unity as opposed to a compound unity.
You need to give an argument for that second statement.

Still, the absolute monotheism of the writers of the Sh'ma favors a singular unity as opposed to a compound unity because .... <insert reasons here>.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826

"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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