God didn’t have to give us the capability

[Willum]

God didn’t have to give us the capability TO do evil.
If we assume God exists, just for simplicity, and we assume freewill, for reasons we really have no rational or Biblical reason to do, but so we can excuse God’s actions in the garden: Then even the most fevered Judeo-Christian must admit, that although God gave us freewill, He was in no way obliged to give us the capacity to do evil.

So the issue then is, why didn’t this wise god give us freewill minus the capacity to do evil?

[Wootah]

God didn’t have to give us the capability TO do evil.
If we assume God exists, just for simplicity, and we assume freewill, for reasons we really have no rational or Biblical reason to do, but so we can excuse God’s actions in the garden: Then even the most fevered Judeo-Christian must admit, that although God gave us freewill, He was in no way obliged to give us the capacity to do evil.

So the issue then is, why didn’t this wise god give us freewill minus the capacity to do evil?

What is evil? Do you have an example of evil?

[Willum]

[Replying to Wootah]
According to the Bible, idolatry and adultery are evil. I imagine we can name many things that are evil? Why ask me, the Bible talks about evil at length, and it isn’t very that important to the topic.

[Divine Insight]

A true marriage cannot be forced.

Your God disagrees:

• Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Note the phrase, "He must marry the young woman..." Your God demands forced marriage.


Tcg

Not only this but how many Christians would even agree with this?

They agree that it's moral and just to force their daughter to marry anyone who might rape her?

This has to be one of the most insane principles the Bible has to offer. I used to think about this even back when I was a Christian. According to this all I would need to do is find the girl I want to marry. Then rape her, and she'll have to marry me whether she likes it or not. And her Christian parents would need to go along with this if they claim to believe in the Bible.

Theists don't even seem to care that the Bible they are so anxious to defend condones and mandates things that they would passionately object to if they had to abide by them.

And keep in mind that nothing Jesus ever said would change Deuteronomy 22:28. To the contrary Jesus proclaimed that every jot and tittle of the law shall remain until heaven and earth pass.

So clearly Jesus supports Deuteronomy 22:28 since those are jots and tittles of the law.

Christians seem to have absolutely no clue what they are actually defending when they defend the Bible.

Think about this Christians. If some older guy rapes your 18 year old daughter (a legal adult woman) you have to stand by the Bible and make sure your daughter marries this man. You can't be having him sent to jail for rape. He's your new son-in-law! The Bible says that he has to marry your daughter for the rest of his life.

How many Christians are going to support this?

Face it Christians you do not support the Hebrew Bible as being the ultimate divine justice and moral authority. You'd fight it tooth and nail to your grave if you actually had to abide by it.

[1213]

God didn’t have to give us the capability TO do evil.
If we assume God exists, just for simplicity, and we assume freewill, for reasons we really have no rational or Biblical reason to do, but so we can excuse God’s actions in the garden: Then even the most fevered Judeo-Christian must admit, that although God gave us freewill, He was in no way obliged to give us the capacity to do evil.

So the issue then is, why didn’t this wise god give us freewill minus the capacity to do evil?

Have you seen the movie Matrix? Interesting thing is that in Biblical point of view this “life� is like the Matrix. People did not have ability to do evil in the Garden of Eden, they were expelled from the life to this first death. It is possible to do evil things here, but nothing of this world can destroy soul, which is the important thing. Body is only like temple for soul to live and experience things in this “virtual reality�. This is why, even though there are many evil and bad things, this is only like a short lesson that is not even meant to last forever and the ability to do evil is not a problem. Here we have the chance to truly know what good and evil means, without it making real damage. Those who learn well and are righteous can after this have the true life with God.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

He said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

I think it was incredibly wise and good that God gave us this lesson. I hope you learn well and use this for good.

[ttruscott]

“I order you to worship and obey me or you will be punished forever
But you have ‘free will’ to choose to worship or not."

How is that different from holding a gun to someone’s head and demanding to be worshiped and obeyed

Warning and threat are not synonyms.

As has been expressed here over and over, a threat is not the same as a warning. They do not refer to the same thing and they do not imply the same thing situation.

Do not parents have expectations of behaviour in the family with sanctions for a lapse? Do not every level of gov't set limits with sanctions for egregious criminal behaviour including death? Do not ordinary social systems all have natural social sanctions for inappropriate behaviour ranging from the natural ignoring them to banishing them to outside of the system? Yet none of these ordinary systems of rules and sanctions are deemed to be threats.

Were you threatened by the family sanctions of your youth? Does the law against murder that includes the death penalty 'threaten' you? Is a man with a lantern telling you that if you proceed down the road you will be in great danger of losing your life if you continue on the way you are going, threatening you?

The warnings we were all given before we sinned included that:
- a free will decison to reject YHWH's claims to be our GOD would change our nature so as to be eternally against HIM and HIS nature. Only HIS help could save us from the legal and natural consequences of making this decision and putting themselves outside of HIS helping grace forever by rejecting HIM as their GOD would seal their fate.

- This new nature would be unforgivable because a person cannot go against their own nature and GOD will not go against a person's free will decison to eternally reject HIS help.

- As well, to keep HIS church and family free from the predations of these eternally evil ones, they would have to be banished to their own place outside of HIS creation into the outer darkness, a place HE warned was a place of eternal suffering.

Some threat eh, when there was no proof HE was GOD and no proof HE had any power let alone power over life and death. IF people were indeed threatened by these claims, how would / could they choose to reject them as real possibilities?

You don't think that GOD nor HIS supposed threats are real and I do not think that HIS warnings are real threats so between us, by no sense of logic at all, can they be called real threats...

[ttruscott]

I am saying God could have created us with freewill, but without the capability to do evil.

Still spinning in the wind...a free will must be able to choose any and every available option or it is NOT free. Your commitment to selling us a restricted will as free inside that restriction is a logical con, a straw horse that will not drink because there can be NO restrictions upon the available options of a free will ! due to the meaning of the word FREE.

Your horse is dead due to the logical missing of the mark of your premise.

[ttruscott]

A true marriage cannot be forced.

Your God disagrees:

• Deuteronomy 22:28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Note the phrase, "He must marry the young woman..." Your God demands forced marriage.

There was NO social welfare in place in those days. You impose modern thinking upon another time, a futile exercise. The marriage was forced to make the man responsible for her forever. No man would marry her nor could she have livelihood (except as a prostitute) as a violated woman. The forced marriage, though not a real marriage in the meaning of a unity based upon love, ensured she would never have to become a prostitute to stay alive.

There was NO expectation that she live with him nor serve him in any way but he had to maintain her house and food for her and any subsequent children.

That the one word, marriage, is used to cover both situations may be deplorable but only the marriage by a free will bonding is a true marriage, ie, is based upon and reflecting the perfect marriage of GOD with HIS Holy Church.

[Willum]

I am saying God could have created us with freewill, but without the capability to do evil.

Still spinning in the wind...a free will must be able to choose any and every available option or it is NOT free. Your commitment to selling us a restricted will as free inside that restriction is a logical con, a straw horse that will not drink because there can be NO restrictions upon the available options of a free will ! due to the meaning of the word FREE.

Your horse is dead due to the logical missing of the mark of your premise.

Odd, you are the only one to think so.
If you are unable to see what others can, you are missing the mark.

I am afraid being able to chose every available option is not a possible constraint, ever.
So why didn't God just create us, along with the inability to reason well, remember perfectly, move things with our minds... why didn't he also leave out the bit about doing evil?

We have many options that are not evil or in accord with God's will, and many constraints that are limitations that also limit us from doing God's will.

The question remains, why did he not give us freewill, and hard-wire, (or whatever) an evil exclusion into us?

It would be easy for an all-powerful, all knowing creature.

[Divine Insight]

I am saying God could have created us with freewill, but without the capability to do evil.

Still spinning in the wind...a free will must be able to choose any and every available option or it is NOT free. Your commitment to selling us a restricted will as free inside that restriction is a logical con, a straw horse that will not drink because there can be NO restrictions upon the available options of a free will ! due to the meaning of the word FREE.

Your horse is dead due to the logical missing of the mark of your premise.

Where in the Bible does it say that God have to give humans complete free will?

Also, your argument necessarily leads to the ultimate end result that there cannot be any free will in heaven then.

So your apologies for your faction of Christianity are extremely weak.

Free will cannot be used to justify this dogma. That's been debunked many times over. You need to move forwarded with something better. Apparently there is nothing better or you would be arguing for that. So I guess you're stuck with having to beat this dead horse into the ground.

It's a broken-record apology that only gets worse over time.