Should we turn churches into mosques?

[marco]

Here's a French report about an Italian bishop:

Moralement et en tant qu’homme de foi, je serais prêt à transformer toutes les églises en mosquées si elles étaient utiles à la cause et si elles aidaient à sauver la vie d’hommes et de femmes pauvres et malheureux, parce que le Christ n’est pas venu sur terre pour construire des églises, mais pour aider les hommes sans distinction de race, de religion ou de nationalité » , a déclaré l’ancien évêque de Caserta, Raffaele Nogaro.


(Morally and as a man of faith I would be prepared to transform all churches into mosques if they served a good cause and helped to save the lives of men and women and unfortunate souls, because Christ didn't come on earth to build churches, but to help people without concern for race or religion or nationality.
So said the old bishop of Caserta, Raffaele Nogaro.)


Would it solve problems if churches were made into mosques .... like turning swords into ploughshares?

Is humble concession the way to deal with what some see as an Islamic problem in the cities of Europe?

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 10 by marco]

Uh huh. But these may be temporary setbacks, as the Crusader loss of Jerusalem was. Now, Jerusalem is home to all three monotheistic faiths, and various schisms, denominations, sects and cults among them. They may not all get on all that well at present, but for the most part they tolerate one another.

Truth is, as I look back through the mists of history from the time of the prophets (say 1000 BC) to the time of Jesus, (say 0 AD) to the time of the crusades (say 1000 AD), to time now, (or say, 2000 AD) there is no doubt in my mind that social progress happened, quality of lives improved, and that the lot of each individual was bettered. Not, I admit, always solely and directly due to religion, but religion played its part.

We might say of religion as whole, as was once said of the Church of England, that it will always do the right thing, but only once it has exhausted every other possible alternative.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[marco]

Truth is, as I look back through the mists of history from the time of the prophets (say 1000 BC) to the time of Jesus, (say 0 AD) to the time of the crusades (say 1000 AD), to time now, (or say, 2000 AD) there is no doubt in my mind that social progress happened, quality of lives improved, and that the lot of each individual was bettered. Not, I admit, always solely and directly due to religion, but religion played its part.

We might say of religion as whole, as was once said of the Church of England, that it will always do the right thing, but only once it has exhausted every other possible alternative.

We have much to thank our scientists for, especially those who insisted that truth surpassed biblical teaching, even if that pronouncement meant burning. There were wise peopel living before Christ and after him; our comforts and our style of living has improved in the West, but where superstition is still dominant, povery and squalor remain.


Charles Martel prevented the encroachment of Islam from Spain to France; eventually the Moors were driven out of Spain. However Constantinople, or Byzantium, that had been the refuge of Greek Orthodoxy, was overrunn in 1453 and became Istanbul. Over 100 years later the Ottoman push against Europe was stopped at the Battle of Lepanto by a combined fleet of Christian leaders. However, it is supposed that the birthrate, rather than military conquest, will eventually fulfil Muhammad's dream.

So much for turning the other cheek. Lucky we ignored that advice.

[2ndRateMind]

our comforts and our style of living has improved in the West, but where superstition is still dominant, poverty and squalor remain.

Indeed they do. It is my main concern, along with ensuring that our lifestyles become environmentally sustainable. However, if we only put into practice the love our prophets and messiahs and clerics preach, I think we would be a long way along the path to resolving these issues, for all our benefit, and for the benefit of our children, and theirs. But one does not have to be overtly religious, or indeed, religious at all, to think that the major challenge of our age is to eradicate extreme poverty whilst remaining comfortably within the ecological carrying capacity of our spaceship earthly home.

We have the resources to make these changes, and most of the technology. We just need the political will. And that will is derived, can only be derived, out of the love we bear for our contemporaries and our descendants. And, to my certain knowledge, God will provide us that love, if we only and open-heartedly ask Him for it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[marco]

We have the resources to make these changes, and most of the technology. We just need the political will. And that will is derived, can only be derived, out of the love we bear for our contemporaries and our descendants. And, to my certain knowledge, God will provide us that love, if we only and open-heartedly ask Him for it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Since I've been a child at school we have been sending vast sums to the children in Africa to buy warplanes. The children remain tearful and skeletal while wars rage round them.

There are many versions of God, not all as provident as the one you advertise. In the past God has accepted many burnt heretics and not so long ago has devoured men who sleep with men, though in parts of religious Africa such people are thrown from tall buildings, apprently in compliance with Scripture. Yet another aspect of God, the koranic one, enjoys burning unbelievers in perpetuity.


SO - let's just dispense with this nonsense and decide to help our neighbour, not in the expectation of Elysian fields but for the simple good it does. The Bishop who offered his churches had the right idea, but all he would be doing is exchanging one wrong for another. God is in the blind beggar not in a cathedral.

[2ndRateMind]

We have the resources to make these changes, and most of the technology. We just need the political will. And that will is derived, can only be derived, out of the love we bear for our contemporaries and our descendants. And, to my certain knowledge, God will provide us that love, if we only and open-heartedly ask Him for it.

Best wishes, 2RM.

SO - let's just dispense with this nonsense and decide to help our neighbour, not in the expectation of Elysian fields but for the simple good it does.

I'm all for simple faith. To do good just because it is good seems a worthy and honourable motivation, and I do not intend to dismiss it. But, sooner or later, our ideas of good (say, feeding the hungry) are going to be challenged by someone else's idea of good (say, owning several motor cars). At this point, one needs to justify just why our idea of good is better than theirs. And religion has much to say on the ethics of these kind of disputed views. I admit, not all of this is accurate, but then, ethics, and theology, develop as fields just like any other academic endeavour.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2Dbunk]

Truth is, as I look back through the mists of history from the time of the prophets (say 1000 BC) to the time of Jesus, (say 0 AD) to the time of the crusades (say 1000 AD), to time now, (or say, 2000 AD) there is no doubt in my mind that social progress happened, quality of lives improved, and that the lot of each individual was bettered. Not, I admit, always solely and directly due to religion, but religion played its part.

We might say of religion as whole, as was once said of the Church of England, that it will always do the right thing, but only once it has exhausted every other possible alternative.

We have much to thank our scientists for, especially those who insisted that truth surpassed biblical teaching, even if that pronouncement meant burning. There were wise peopel living before Christ and after him; our comforts and our style of living has improved in the West, but where superstition is still dominant, povery and squalor remain.


Charles Martel prevented the encroachment of Islam from Spain to France; eventually the Moors were driven out of Spain. However Constantinople, or Byzantium, that had been the refuge of Greek Orthodoxy, was overrunn in 1453 and became Istanbul. Over 100 years later the Ottoman push against Europe was stopped at the Battle of Lepanto by a combined fleet of Christian leaders. However, it is supposed that the birthrate, rather than military conquest, will eventually fulfil Muhammad's dream.

So much for turning the other cheek. Lucky we ignored that advice.

2ndRateMind says:
I'm all for simple faith. To do good just because it is good seems a worthy and honourable motivation, and I do not intend to dismiss it. But, sooner or later, our ideas of good (say, feeding the hungry) are going to be challenged by someone else's idea of good (say, owning several motor cars). At this point, one needs to justify just why our idea of good is better than theirs. And religion has much to say on the ethics of these kind of disputed views. I admit, not all of this is accurate, but then, ethics, and theology, develop as fields just like any other academic endeavour.

WHAT A WONDERFUL CONVERSATION, Marco and 2RM!! Good points are made by both of you, especially your history lessons, Marco. If only our politicians were not so self-serving and not as dumb-as-rocks, maybe some progress could be made in leveling the global economy field and be more understanding of the needs of people rather than pitting one against the other.

[2Dbunk]

Indeed, the Christian thing to do would be to offer their unused real estate to its enemy. Isn't that what Christ taught -- "turn the other cheek?"

Sure, that would give the Muslims a leg-up in rooting themselves in the UK, but Christianity's ultimate goal is a salvation beyond such worry! The real meaning of their faith is not to attain wealth and property in this world but to prepare themselves for eternal salvation -- what could be more important?

But such a scenario is not grasped by most who call themselves Christian. And this is their Achilles heel. If there is one thing Christians are good at, it is hedging their bets. That's why many use all kinds of excuses to accumulate wealth … and automatic guns to protect their wealth. It's as if their kingdom is here on earth and not the heavenly bliss they were taught at a young age to work toward.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I agree with the monk's assertion that the church is not any type of physical structure. But would turning the churches into mosques stop the muslim expansion into Europe the answer would be no.

But what is stopping and even changing sections of the middle east is the following.

As millions of Christians flee the Middle East and Christianity’s original homeland becomes lacking of Christians at increasing rates, an odd anomaly is occurring: Christianity in the Gulf states is surging. Amid a shocking exodus in neighbouring countries, this strictly Islamic region has seen a jump in its Christian population.

Figures show that in both Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, Christianity was practically non existent just over a hundred years ago. There were only 80 Christians in the UAE in 1910 (0.1 per cent of the population) and 50 in Saudi Arabia, even less than 0.1 per cent, according to a recent study. However one hundred years later in 2010, Christianity had exploded to 12.6 per cent of UAE’s population and 4.4 per cent of Saudi Arabia’s. Between the two countries alone there are now well over one million Christians. While by no means a majority, this represents a a significant growth in such a conservative Islamic region.

Indeed, this surge is not limited to Saudi Arabia and the UAE. Throughout the Gulf, countries such as Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman and Qatar have all seen dramatic increases to their Christian populations.

Converting from Islam to Christianity in the Gulf is punishable by death in both countries and evangelism is prohibited. In Saudi Arabia any public observance of non-Muslim faiths is illegal and Saudi Christians are forced to worship in private. However despite the dramatic increase, it is likely there will be little change to religious tolerance in the region. Wahhabism, a strict interpretation of Islam, still dominates Saudi Arabia in particular and even in the relatively liberal UAE, Christian converts face severe persecution and no religious education other than the teaching of Islam is permitted.

Although the recent increase of Christians in the Middle East is truly amazing, many are asking why this is happening. Over the past few years, thousands of Middle Eastern muslims have claimed to have seen Jesus in dreams and visions; is this just a strange coincidence or is God actually trying to speak to these people before it’s too late?

“In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.� // Acts 2:17

The future is therefore uncertain for Christians in the Gulf. But as Christianity loses its most ancient communities in the Middle East, the arrival of Christians in Islam’s most conservative heartland may be a source of hope to those praying for a revival in the Middle East.