18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Translation: Abraham looked up and saw God as three men and he bowed down.
Surely Christians can use this as evidence for the trinity?
Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
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Wootah
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Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #1Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
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Tcg
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Re: Genesis 18:1-2 Trinity
Post #61Wootah wrote: 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Translation: Abraham looked up and saw God as three men and he bowed down.
Surely Christians can use this as evidence for the trinity?
It seems to me there are two major points that have not been addressed.
1. The custom of bowing as a greeting, even to strangers, overthrows the idea that Abraham's bowing indicates that he was in the presence of God.
2. Based on the custom of hospitality, Abraham provided water for the three to wash their feet. Then he provided a meal of meat, bread, curds and milk for the three to eat.
Since when did God the Father, the Holy Spirt, or the Pre-Incarnate Christ have feet that need cleaning?
How could spirit beings eat and drink the meal provided?
If, however, as verse 2 states, the three were men, washing feet and eating a meal make perfect sense.
Tcg
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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.
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Eloi
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Post #62
Rereading the account on Gen. 18,19 there are some details that have not been touched in the topic and others that need reconsideration ... A good exercise to understand stories in the Bible is visualize the scene and that's what I'd done ...
Firstly, Abraham bowed down in front of the three men he saw. How close together were these three men like thinking Abraham was bowing in front of the three of them? When I visualize the scene I see Abraham bowing down in front of only one of the three, and I think one of them was distinguished and Abraham bowed down directly in front of him, even if the three men were together. That is a reasonable idea, since one of them stayed with him after the other two went to Sodom (Ge. 18:22; 19:1). That one who stayed with him after the others left was treated as Jehovah, and that means he was the real representative of God, at least the one with the principal role in the mission.
Why three and not only one? The account tells us that two of them went to Sodom, not all the three, so it is obvios that the other two have something else to do while the representative of God was saying something else to Abraham.
If we go to the continuation of the account in Gen.19 we can read what the others two said to Lot:
Gen. 19:12 Then the men said to Lot: “Do you have anyone else here? Son-in-law and your sons and your daughters and all who are yours in the city, bring out of the place! 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.�
It is obvious that these two men were the ones who were with the other one who stayed with Abraham in the first part of the account. They are not talking in the name of Jehovah, since they said: "Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin". They appeared in Sodom "by evening" ... and this part of the account says:
Gen. 19:1 Now the two angels arrived at Sodʹom by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodʹom. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth. 2 And he proceeded to say: “Please, now, my lords, turn aside, please, into the house of YOUR servant and stay overnight and have YOUR feet washed. Then YOU must get up early and travel on YOUR way.�
Lot is calling them "my lords" in plural with all verbs in plural. He is talking to them as two persons ... the other man/angel, the distinguished among all the three, was still with Abraham and again, this versicle says that:
Gen. 18:22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sodʹom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.
... and at the end of this part it says:
Gen. 18:33  Then Jehovah went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
... and again, there is not a trinity of gods at all in the account nor all the three of them are adressed as Jehovah.
Wootah doesn't know where the two speaking to Lot came from
... and probable doesn't understand why the one who stayed with Abraham is the only one directly treated as Jehovah, and not the three of them. Let's leave the Bible talk, and let's put aside preconceived ideas and attempts to make the Bible say what we want it to say.
Firstly, Abraham bowed down in front of the three men he saw. How close together were these three men like thinking Abraham was bowing in front of the three of them? When I visualize the scene I see Abraham bowing down in front of only one of the three, and I think one of them was distinguished and Abraham bowed down directly in front of him, even if the three men were together. That is a reasonable idea, since one of them stayed with him after the other two went to Sodom (Ge. 18:22; 19:1). That one who stayed with him after the others left was treated as Jehovah, and that means he was the real representative of God, at least the one with the principal role in the mission.
Why three and not only one? The account tells us that two of them went to Sodom, not all the three, so it is obvios that the other two have something else to do while the representative of God was saying something else to Abraham.
If we go to the continuation of the account in Gen.19 we can read what the others two said to Lot:
Gen. 19:12 Then the men said to Lot: “Do you have anyone else here? Son-in-law and your sons and your daughters and all who are yours in the city, bring out of the place! 13 For we are bringing this place to ruin, because the outcry against them has grown loud before Jehovah, so that Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin.�
It is obvious that these two men were the ones who were with the other one who stayed with Abraham in the first part of the account. They are not talking in the name of Jehovah, since they said: "Jehovah sent us to bring the city to ruin". They appeared in Sodom "by evening" ... and this part of the account says:
Gen. 19:1 Now the two angels arrived at Sodʹom by evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodʹom. When Lot caught sight of them, then he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the earth. 2 And he proceeded to say: “Please, now, my lords, turn aside, please, into the house of YOUR servant and stay overnight and have YOUR feet washed. Then YOU must get up early and travel on YOUR way.�
Lot is calling them "my lords" in plural with all verbs in plural. He is talking to them as two persons ... the other man/angel, the distinguished among all the three, was still with Abraham and again, this versicle says that:
Gen. 18:22 At this point the men turned from there and got on their way to Sodʹom; but as for Jehovah, he was still standing before Abraham.
... and at the end of this part it says:
Gen. 18:33  Then Jehovah went his way when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.
... and again, there is not a trinity of gods at all in the account nor all the three of them are adressed as Jehovah.
Wootah doesn't know where the two speaking to Lot came from
... and probable doesn't understand why the one who stayed with Abraham is the only one directly treated as Jehovah, and not the three of them. Let's leave the Bible talk, and let's put aside preconceived ideas and attempts to make the Bible say what we want it to say.-
brianbbs67
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Post #63
Hashem appeared to him in the plains of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent in the heat of the day.
He lifted his eyes and saw: And behold three men standing over him.
He perceived , so he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and bowed to the ground. And he said, "My lords, if I find favor in your eyes, please pass not away from your servant.
To me it appears that God appeared to Abraham and then the 3 others arrived.
They seem to be Malach.
He lifted his eyes and saw: And behold three men standing over him.
He perceived , so he ran toward them from the entrance of the tent, and bowed to the ground. And he said, "My lords, if I find favor in your eyes, please pass not away from your servant.
To me it appears that God appeared to Abraham and then the 3 others arrived.
They seem to be Malach.
