Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

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2Dbunk
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Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

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Post by 2Dbunk »

JAG television series (CBS’ “Judge Advocate Corps� by Donald P. Bellisario, Executive Producer – Ninth Season, Disc #5, entitled “Fighting Words,� (one hour)

IS--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the BEST DRAMATIC PORTRAYAL OF STEVEN WEINBERG’S ASSERTION:
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.�

Rarely are very good examples given in asserting an argument, but when presented they win the day. “Fighting Words� fits that description as the series’ protagonists Commander Harmon Rabb goes nose to nose with prosecuting attorney, USMC Colonel Sarah MacKenzie (the former defending an over-zealous two star Marine Corps general who, in military uniform, disparages Islam from the pulpit of his church’s congregation). The Colonel wins, and the general gets his hands slapped.

This is the best example that I’ve seen on screen of a good man inadvertently trying to destroy the notion that our Constitution is sincere in protecting all religious belief.

Yes, the “unmatched wisdom� of our current president has muddied the waters a bit
when he insinuates that there are “good Nazis� as well as bad; and that white supremacists might make for good neighbors. If that is the case, what was WW II all about?

Was the court decision wrong in this case? If so, can you put forward an example to counter Weinberg’s assertion? OR, another example that supports Weinberg’s assertion?

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #41

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 38 by Mithrae]

Rubbish supported by facts.
People may kill for “God and Country,� but the country is always invoking God, or dying because of God.
Those are the facts, how long have JudeoChristians had their way denying Nazi were Christian?


The lies of the past are too easily uncovered by Google these days for you to claim “absolute rubbish.�

Germany was Catholic, Italy, it’s ally, was Catholic. Rome was Catholic. The Holocaust was an endeavor carried out by Catholics. Though directed by (Catholic) men, God did nothing to stop it, and of course, if you asked them, would say, and have proof, that God ordered it.

The same proof that other religious members of this site have: A deep personal experience.

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #42

Post by 1213 »

2Dbunk wrote: …
I refer you to Google. On Google's first page concerning 'Biblical Contradictions' there are eight direct references to contradictions, and only one reference to 'Explanation of Biblical Contradictions.' I didn't go any farther.
There is not real contradiction, only bad interpretations and lies. By what atheists have shown, only way to argue that Bible is wrong, and contradictory is to make a strawman argument, bad interpretations and be dishonest.
2Dbunk wrote:IMO the most contradictory blather (among much, much blather) in the Bible is Psalm 14. This Psalm is contradictory to truth when it states "no atheist can do good -- no, not any!" In my experience, atheists have shown themselves to be remarkably good citizens, trustworthy to a fault. I would trust their word against many if not most Christians.
I was speaking about mistakes or contradictions in the Bible. I understand that Bible can be in contradiction with your claims, but for me it is not a problem and it doesn’t tell that Bible is wrong. And by what I know, Psalm 14 doesn’t have word “atheist�, so you whole claim is very poor.
2Dbunk wrote: Case in point: All politicians in our legislators are religious (in America); a very high percentage of them Christian. But Americans, when asked what they think of politicians, say "they are all crooks!" Americans have come to accept the politico lies as everyday business, "everyone does it" exemplifies the White House's Mulvaney just yesterday.
So, if they are crook liars, why should anyone believe they are Christian (disciples of Jesus)? It would be interesting to hear what they would answer to this: Christian means a disciple of Jesus, are you a disciple of Jesus? I believe no one of them would say yes.

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #43

Post by Mithrae »

Tcg wrote:
Mithrae wrote:
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 28 by Mithrae]

That’s the propaganda, but people kill for God.
Hitler prayed to God.
The Nazi swore an oath to God.

You don’t kill in the name of Connecticut, for Pete’s sake. The only power high enough to justify murder is God.
That's absolute rubbish and you know it; millions of people have killed and died for their country. Many have done so for "God, king and country" or some equivalent... though nine times out of ten it seems to be president and country giving the orders and reaping the rewards, not God. But even ignoring those 'mixed' cases, the number of people killed solely for the glory of Greece or Rome or the USSR or 'freedom and American interests' exceeds the number killed solely in the name of God several hundred-fold, at least; Stalin alone is likely responsible for far more deaths than have been killed solely in the name of God. 
I'm not so sure about that. This slogan isn't referring to hand warmers.
Please try to keep up. Willum asserted that only God can justify murder and folk don't kill for their state or nation; which as we all know is entirely false. I don't know whether you think it's clever to quote half a sentence and pretend that you're addressing someone's post...? As far as I can tell this just seems to be more of the same unthinking 'us versus them' mentality of jumping on a bandwagon against religion/Christianity regardless how irrational or obviously untrue is the position you're supporting.

As for the Nazis, for starters in order to be even remotely relevant to this thread you would have to be maintaining that they were 'good people.' Is that your position? But even if that is your idea of a good person, as I pointed out religion certainly wasn't the only basis for these very fine people's behaviour and there's little basis for supposing that it was even a primary motivator; humiliation and desperation coming out of WW1 and the Great Depression were big influences, for example, while quite similar purges aimed at social homogenization were occuring at the same time in the Soviet Union with a distinctly anti-religious bent. The anti-semitism of Martin Luther and his church is an historical fact and certainly a contributory cause to the Jewish Holocaust, but hardly explains the Nazis' targetting of Gypsies, whereas the deviation of both groups from the idealized homogenous Aryan state does. Marginalization of Jews, Gypsies, immigrants and indigenous folk has historically been a common theme in both religious and secular countries around the world, perhaps suggesting that Nazi ideology amplified a universal tendency of mistrust towards 'the other' rather than stemming from a primarily religious motivation.

If you wanted an intelligent discussion of what motivated these 'good people' to do evil, perhaps considering some of these obvious complicating factors would have been in order? But I guess if you just wanted to wave a flag for your team, you've done some very fine work :)

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #44

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 43 by Mithrae]

Wow, wow, wow.
Well, let’s start first by saying that the topic states it takes religion to make good people do evil.
As a lesson in history, the Nazi and Hitler were praised by the world.
The New York Times, Man of the Year, for example.
So the Nazi you disparage with the ease of 2020 hindsight, actually began ‘good.’ Then religion got ahold of them.
What were you saying?
So TCG had kept up, he simply put what you said in context of the OP.

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #45

Post by Mithrae »

[Replying to post 44 by Willum]

So you believe that in 1938, fifteen years after a failed coup attempt and writing Mein Kampf in prison, four years after the Night of Long Knives and his seizure of dictatorial power, and the same year as the Krystallnacht massacres, Adolf Hitler was a 'good person' and it was only later that he started being turned evil... supposedly by religion.

I'm going to choose to believe that you are simply ignorant, and blinded by hatred of Abrahamic theists. Better that than thinking that you really believe the nonsense you're posting.

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #46

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 45 by Mithrae]

No, but that is a GREAT strawman.
For indeed I did not claim either was good.
The New York Times and other posterity did.
Then the Nazi felt God could empower them to kill, and Weinberg’s statement came true.

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Post #47

Post by Wootah »

Mithrae wrote: [Replying to post 44 by Willum]

So you believe that in 1938, fifteen years after a failed coup attempt and writing Mein Kampf in prison, four years after the Night of Long Knives and his seizure of dictatorial power, and the same year as the Krystallnacht massacres, Adolf Hitler was a 'good person' and it was only later that he started being turned evil... supposedly by religion.

I'm going to choose to believe that you are simply ignorant, and blinded by hatred of Abrahamic theists. Better that than thinking that you really believe the nonsense you're posting.
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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #48

Post by 2Dbunk »

1213 wrote:
2Dbunk wrote: …
I refer you to Google. On Google's first page concerning 'Biblical Contradictions' there are eight direct references to contradictions, and only one reference to 'Explanation of Biblical Contradictions.' I didn't go any farther.
There is not real contradiction, only bad interpretations and lies. By what atheists have shown, only way to argue that Bible is wrong, and contradictory is to make a strawman argument, bad interpretations and be dishonest.
2Dbunk wrote:IMO the most contradictory blather (among much, much blather) in the Bible is Psalm 14. This Psalm is contradictory to truth when it states "no atheist can do good -- no, not any!" In my experience, atheists have shown themselves to be remarkably good citizens, trustworthy to a fault. I would trust their word against many if not most Christians.
I was speaking about mistakes or contradictions in the Bible. I understand that Bible can be in contradiction with your claims, but for me it is not a problem and it doesn’t tell that Bible is wrong. And by what I know, Psalm 14 doesn’t have word “atheist�, so you whole claim is very poor.
2Dbunk wrote: Case in point: All politicians in our legislators are religious (in America); a very high percentage of them Christian. But Americans, when asked what they think of politicians, say "they are all crooks!" Americans have come to accept the politico lies as everyday business, "everyone does it" exemplifies the White House's Mulvaney just yesterday.
So, if they are crook liars, why should anyone believe they are Christian (disciples of Jesus)? It would be interesting to hear what they would answer to this: Christian means a disciple of Jesus, are you a disciple of Jesus? I believe no one of them would say yes.
For starters, MOST politicians CLAIM to be Christians! And yes, they would claim to be a disciple of Jesus (or anything angelic that would help their re-election effort). Oh, the word 'disciple' might be watered down a bit, like 'Steward of Jesus' or some such double-speak remonstration. Should we believe them on their word seeing they won their position by the majority of votes?
What good is truth if its value is not more than unproven, handed-down faith?

One believes things because one is conditioned to believe them. -Aldous Huxley

Fear within the Religious will always be with them ... as long as they are fearful of death.

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #49

Post by Zzyzx »

.
1213 wrote: So, if they are crook liars, why should anyone believe they are Christian (disciples of Jesus)?
Why believe that ANYONE is a Christian? We have no way of knowing that you are a Christian. For all anyone knows, a person could be an Atheist pretending to be Christian and making foolish statements just to make Christians look bad.

However, Forum Rules require that we honor whatever label a person attaches to their religious belief.

How can it be known if someone is a crook or liar? Some are very good at deception. Most politicians appear to be VERY adept at lying and deception. They also know that pretending to be Christian is convincing to a large percentage of voters.
1213 wrote: It would be interesting to hear what they would answer to this: Christian means a disciple of Jesus, are you a disciple of Jesus? I believe no one of them would say yes.
An accomplished liar (or even amateur) would likely know that the expected answer was ‘yes’, so that is what they would be expected to say.

Would you expect a liar to tell the truth just because you rephrased the question?
.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: Revisiting Steven Weinberg's assertion

Post #50

Post by Mithrae »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 45 by Mithrae]

No, but that is a GREAT strawman.
For indeed I did not claim either was good.
The New York Times and other posterity did.
Then the Nazi felt God could empower them to kill, and Weinberg’s statement came true.
- I explained to tcg that the Nazis would be irrelevant to the thread unless he considered them 'good people' motivated to evil by religion.
- You agreed that "the topic states it takes religion to make good people do evil."
- You then specifically zeroed in on your chosen exemplar; not just Nazis in a general sense, but the 1938 man of the year Adolf Hitler.
- You suggested that it is hindsight, knowledge of later actions which makes it easy to condemn the Nazi.
- You even repeated your claim that they had been 'good,' and then "religion got ahold of them."

I don't see any way to spin that post other than the obvious. You may well regret those comments now, and as I said I'm inclined to suspect that you didn't really mean it even at the time, whatever point you imagined you'd score off it. After you'd earlier declared that only God justifies murder, that people don't kill for the state... and now a few posts later that Hitler had been a 'good person' before WW2. Rules are rules of course, even though I toned down my response about as much as I could, but it's probably long overdue for me to stop wasting my time :lol:

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