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shnarkle
Subject: Re: Slavery
Tcg wrote:

shnarkle wrote:

[Replying to post 16 by William]

When the Mosaic law describes when, where, and how one must free their slaves, it's about freeing slaves QED When the fact that no other neighboring societies provided these regulations dealing with the way in which slaves were to be freed, that should be more than enough evidence to show that a slaves best option was to be enslaved by an observant Jew. That was their only ticket to freedom.



This is only true for Jewish slaves. Other slaves are allowed to be kept permanently.


And you're not only conflating the difference between what one is allowed to do with what they will do, but assuming that they would just because they could. They were allowed to free their slaves regardless of whether they were native or foreign born.

Quote:
This is not a hidden fact even though those who try to support the Biblical method of slavery often ignore.


Could be. Given that I'm not ignoring it, do you have anything else to add? Perhaps the fact that some ignore the fact that a Jew could free his slaves regardless of their status? In fact, an observant Jew could simply purchase a foreign born slaves freedom and immediately set them free. Some could do it out of the kindness of their heart while others could do it just to show off their piety. Some Jews just simply have so much money to burn that they burn through it just for the fun of it. That's what it was like to be an observant Jew with a lot of money.

Tcg
Subject: Re: Slavery
shnarkle wrote:

Tcg wrote:

shnarkle wrote:

[Replying to post 16 by William]

When the Mosaic law describes when, where, and how one must free their slaves, it's about freeing slaves QED When the fact that no other neighboring societies provided these regulations dealing with the way in which slaves were to be freed, that should be more than enough evidence to show that a slaves best option was to be enslaved by an observant Jew. That was their only ticket to freedom.



This is only true for Jewish slaves. Other slaves are allowed to be kept permanently.


And you're not only conflating the difference between what one is allowed to do with what they will do, but assuming that they would just because they could. They were allowed to free their slaves regardless of whether they were native or foreign born.

Quote:
This is not a hidden fact even though those who try to support the Biblical method of slavery often ignore.


Could be. Given that I'm not ignoring it, do you have anything else to add? Perhaps the fact that some ignore the fact that a Jew could free his slaves regardless of their status? In fact, an observant Jew could simply purchase a foreign born slaves freedom and immediately set them free. Some could do it out of the kindness of their heart while others could do it just to show off their piety. Some Jews just simply have so much money to burn that they burn through it just for the fun of it. That's what it was like to be an observant Jew with a lot of money.



I have pointed out the fact that you, along with many others, ignore what the Bible actually says. You, along with many others, misrepresent the facts of Biblical slavery.

I am simply stating the reality of what the Bible states. I don't expect you, or many others, to admit this reality, but I have done my part in presenting what the Bible actually states.

Readers who are interested in the truth will research this issue and find that I am the one properly presenting the Biblical standards of slavery.


Tcg

William
Subject: Re: Slavery
[Replying to post 18]

shnarkle: Your argument that slavery encourages possessiveness is not an argument.

William: I am not arguing that.
My argument is that the Mosaic law itself supports disparity because it is based upon ideals involving possessions and ownership.

Your argument that it can help humanity step in the direction of helping create a system of parity is silly because of that.


shnarkle: As the bible says, "your slave is your money". Your employee/slave makes you all that money so you take care of them better than anyone else will so they will stay, and continue making you lots of money.

William: Making money is not possible other than within the laws of disparity.
If one loves money, one supports the systems of disparity.
The modern day enslavement you are speaking about which you argue is inferior to how the Mosaic law demanded human owners treated their human property, has its roots in said law due to the aspects of said law of which I have already pointed out.

Essentially then, the Mosaic law has clearly contributed to the modern day enslavement you are speaking about, because it supports possession and ownership.

shnarkle
Subject: Re: Slavery
[quote="Tcg"]

Quote:
I have pointed out the fact that you, along with many others, ignore what the Bible actually says. You, along with many others, misrepresent the facts of Biblical slavery.


I just pointed out the facts which you're still ignoring.

Quote:
I am simply stating the reality of what the Bible states.


What you've done is to oversimplify it beyond credulity.

Quote:
I don't expect you, or many others, to admit this reality,


At least you have the courtesy to admit it is a particular reality; i.e. yours.

Quote:
but I have done my part in presenting what the Bible actually states.


Thanks for portraying the "straight man" so we can provide the punchline to your joke.

Quote:
Readers who are interested in the truth will research this issue and find that I am the one properly presenting the Biblical standards of slavery.


Readers who have researched this issue already know that slavery has been a fact of life throughout human history, and there is undoubtedly no better standard for treating a slave than that found in the Hebrew scriptures. They treated their slaves better than employers do their employees today in first world countries.(':study:')

Clizby Wampuscat
Subject: Re: Slavery
shnarkle wrote:


...and there is undoubtedly no better standard for treating a slave than that found in the Hebrew scriptures. They treated their slaves better than employers do their employees today in first world countries.(':study:')


I disagree. Even if it is the best standard for treating a slave it is still highly immoral.

Can you get a Hebrew female employee by buying females from their fathers? Ex 21:7-11.

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.


Can you trick a Hebrew male employee by giving them a wife and if they have children with them they become your employee for life. Ex21:2-5.

When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,’


Can you but a non Hebrew employee from nations around you and give them to your children as an inheritance and possession forever? Can you rule ruthlessly over a non Hebrew employee? Lev 25:44-46

As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you. You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.


If a nation doesn't surrender to you can you kill their men and take the women and children as employees for ever? Dt 20:10-15

When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if it responds to you peaceably and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. And when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the livestock, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as plunder for yourselves. And you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities that are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here.

Can you beat an employee with a rod as long as they don't die within 1-2 days? Ex21: 20-21

When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

ttruscott
Subject: Re: Slavery
marco wrote:
No condemnation, no awareness of slavery's immorality - just acceptance. Presumably his Father was at ease with slavery.

YHWH allows all manner of evils in people...without acceptance nor being untroubled, that is, it will be judged.

I see no justification to claim HE feels at ease, ie, content, contented, pleased, satisfied, easeful, peaceful, easygoing, laid-back, with slavery.

ttruscott
Subject: Re: Slavery
Wootah wrote:
God wants Christians to be slaves (in the literal sense) to the world so that as many people as possible can be saved. Good works require slavery.


Hardly.

Our slavery to sin is a natural consequence of our CHOICE to be evil in HIS sight, rejecting HIS warnings of the consequences.

ttruscott
Subject: Re: Slavery
Clizby Wampuscat wrote:

Can you get a Hebrew female employee by buying females from their fathers? Ex 21:7-11.


You work from Exodus 21:7 “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. Slave is the interpretation of amah:

slave: 519 Strong's: amah: Definition: a maid, handmaid; a maid-servant or female slave -- (hand-)bondmaid(-woman), maid(-servant).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance: a maid, handmaid

NASB Translation: female (15), female servant (4), female slave (2), handmaid (2), handmaids (1), maid (8), maids (5), maidservant (19), servant* (1), servants* (6), slave* (4), slaves* (4).
Though this allows slave to be in fact properly used, it does NOT mean that it is to be preferred and to create a doctrine out of its being used is short sighted. Only 8 of 28 translations of this verse chose slave over the other options according to Bible Hub's parallel bible list.

Clizby Wampuscat
Subject: Re: Slavery
ttruscott wrote:

Clizby Wampuscat wrote:

Can you get a Hebrew female employee by buying females from their fathers? Ex 21:7-11.


You work from Exodus 21:7 “If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. Slave is the interpretation of amah:

slave: 519 Strong's: amah: Definition: a maid, handmaid; a maid-servant or female slave -- (hand-)bondmaid(-woman), maid(-servant).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance: a maid, handmaid

NASB Translation: female (15), female servant (4), female slave (2), handmaid (2), handmaids (1), maid (8), maids (5), maidservant (19), servant* (1), servants* (6), slave* (4), slaves* (4).
Though this allows slave to be in fact properly used, it does NOT mean that it is to be preferred and to create a doctrine out of its being used is short sighted. Only 8 of 28 translations of this verse chose slave over the other options according to Bible Hub's parallel bible list.


I will change the word slave to maid and see if this helps:

When a man sells his daughter as a maid, she shall not go out as the male maids do. If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

The word is not the problem it is the actions god says are OK that is the problem. Do you think it is any better that a father can sell his daughter as a maid or be forced to marry the employers son?

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