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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:40 pm
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Plagues of Egypt

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According to Moses there are 10 plagues of Egypt.
The last is the most important for many reasons including it forced Pharaoh's hand to finally let them go.
It has been celebrated since the time of Moses until today, by every single prophet of the bible including Jesus.
It is NOT found in the Koran...there are only 9 plagues.
WHY didn't Mohammed know about it???
Or did he hide it??
Or did Jibril hide it.
Or is it that the god of Islam isn't YHVH??

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:02 pm
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Re: Plagues of Egypt

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[Replying to post 1 by letschat]
That's interesting. I hadn't noticed that.

From a source perspective, the Qur'an seems to know a number of Christian traditions that differ from the New Testament as well as spotty knowledge of the Old Testament. That leads to weird things like Jesus being Moses' nephew (the Qur'an conflates Mary, Jesus' mother with Miriam, Moses and Aaron's sister).

If we look at this another way, though, this could be seen as confirmation that the Qur'an retains a genuine tradition that was corrupted in the transmission of the Bible. Surah 27 ("The Ants"), verse 12 says that the nine "signs" included the non-plague sign from Exodus 4:6. The plagues in the Bible actually come from two different sources (the "E" source and the "P" source of the Documentary Hypothesis). The "E" source only contains eight plagues (blood, frogs, flies, livestock, hail, locusts, darkness, the Passover) and the "P" source contains four (blood, frogs, lice, boils). There are two overlaps, making ten unique plagues total. Since "P" is usually considered to be exilic or post-exilic, one could argue that the eight listed by "E" are the actual, historical plagues and adding "P" corrupted the text. Combine eight plagues (which aren't enumerated in the verse) with the white hand parlor trick from 4:6 and you get nine signs.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:28 pm
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Missing Passover

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Well some of what you said was a little over my head...
But what I do know is that the Passover is not present in the Koran.
As Jesus is called the "Passover Lamb of God" and was crucified on Passover, then a good reason is because Islam wants to avoid the truth about the Crucifixion, and Jesus' role in salvation.

The EXTRA sources noted in the Koran but not in the bible are found in extra books like the Talmud, the Mishrash [can't spell it] and Apocryphal gospels which were written AFTER the Bible...all man made legends and stories that Mohammed would have heard but not known were not in the bible.
eg Jesus speaking from the Cradle, making clay birds fly, Mary in the Temple; being picked by lot; the Cave, Iskander and the Iron gate; Solomon and the Jinn; Abraham in the fiery furnace, etc.
Other stories he just got plain wrong in time lines like you said: Mary being Imran's daughter. And Haman being with Pharaoh.
Mohammed's aim was not to just become the prophet of the pagan tribe he lived among, but also the prophet to the Jews and Christians. While he was living he did not have much success because they heard his message in person, compared it to what they knew, and rejected him and his god allah. For that he destroyed ALL 4 Jewish tribes of Medina and Khaibar - a considerable population with untold wealth. These had migrated there after the loss of Jerusalem in 135 AD. [So I had heard]

If one does not get too hung up on which plague and where...the obvious issue here is that the last plague is missing. The one that actually caused Pharaoh to relent and send them out. The people gifted them with wealth in order to protect them from their curses.
To miss the last plague means that Allah is not YHVH - the God of Israel.
It is that simple.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:16 pm
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Re: Missing Passover

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letschat wrote:
To miss the last plague means that Allah is not YHVH - the God of Israel.
It is that simple.

The point that I was making is that, while the Qur'an isn't free of mistakes and conflicting sources, neither is the Bible. To put it another way, if we are willing to grant the Bible a supernatural origin despite its problems, then in fairness, we should grant the possibility to the Qur'an, as well.

While the Qur'an got the exact plagues wrong as they are now represented in the Bible, the list of plagues in Exodus is actually a combination of two different traditions, each of which had its own list. The two lists overlap, but are different. I'm saying that in that light, the difference between the Qur'an and the Bible might be proof that the Qur'an was inspired and the Bible wasn't.

To put it a bit more succinctly, you're using a double standard. The Qur'an does have very many flaws, but the Bible has just as many. If you're willing to assume inspiration for one, there's no good reason to deny it for the other.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:16 pm
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Plagues of Egypt

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When a book as old as the bible exists and an illiterate Arab [not even a Jew] comes along 1400 years later and contradicts it, what is the likelihood that the latter is correct? Probability none.

The proof is there...the 10th Plague of Egypt is MISSING in the Koran altogether. The 10th plague - the Passover - has been celebrated in Israel from Moses till today and will continue to the end of time...
But the entity that inspired the Koran forgot to mention it?
That means that the entity that inspired the Koran and the God who inspired the Bible are not the same.

Sure both have Spiritual origins, but the origin is what counts. One is from God the other is untested...but the results are there to see in every Islamic Sharia based country, and by those who claim to be following Allah today - the Islamic fundamentalists.

The so-called flaws in the bible have been debated since it was first written and it survives all attacks on it.
What one can perceive as a flaw is a matter of perception and expectation.
What is found within the book is a relationship with the Living God who loves us and wants us to be with him for eternity. Not separated for eternity.
He gave us a means to do so - himself, in Jesus - it is up to us to SEE it and respond. Or not. We are free to choose.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:52 am
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Re: Plagues of Egypt

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letschat wrote:
When a book as old as the bible exists and an illiterate Arab [not even a Jew] comes along 1400 years later and contradicts it, what is the likelihood that the latter is correct? Probability none.

Only if we assume that the illiterate Arab doesn't have access to divine knowledge through revelation. But if we assume that others don't, either, then the probability is at least as low that much of the Bible is correct.

letschat wrote:
The proof is there...the 10th Plague of Egypt is MISSING in the Koran altogether. The 10th plague - the Passover - has been celebrated in Israel from Moses till today and will continue to the end of time...

Probably not. The Deuteronomistic History (Judges through 2 Kings) seems to know nothing of the Passover until 2 Kings 23 when the priests of Yahweh "found" the long-lost book of the Law in the temple. Note verse 22:
Quote:
Surely there was not kept such a passover from the days of the judges that judged Israel, nor in all the days of the kings of Israel, nor of the kings of Judah;"

The post-exilic Chronicler had to retroactively add the Passover to the list of sacrifices that Solomon performed when he became king.

Compare 1 Kings 3:1-5:
Quote:
And Solomon made affinity with Pharaoh king of Egypt, and took Pharaoh’s daughter, and brought her into the city of David, until he had made an end of building his own house, and the house of Jehovah, and the wall of Jerusalem round about. Only the people sacrificed in the high places, because there was no house built for the name of Jehovah until those days. And Solomon loved Jehovah, walking in the statutes of David his father: only he sacrificed and burnt incense in the high places.
with the post-exilic 2 Chronicles 8:11-12:
Quote:
And Solomon brought up the daughter of Pharaoh out of the city of David unto the house that he had built for her; for he said, My wife shall not dwell in the house of David king of Israel, because the places are holy, whereunto the ark of Jehovah hath come.

Then Solomon offered burnt-offerings unto Jehovah on the altar of Jehovah, which he had built before the porch, even as the duty of every day required, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the set feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.

Interestingly, it looks like there was already a feast at the time of Moses (assuming he was real), because the whole discourse with Pharaoh that led to the plagues was occasioned by a time of sacrifice (Ex. 3:16 and 5:3). If the Israelites already had a festival that coincided with the time of the Exodus before it even happened, it couldn't very well have originally been because of the Passover, could it?

letschat wrote:
But the entity that inspired the Koran forgot to mention it?

That means that the entity that inspired the Koran and the God who inspired the Bible are not the same.

Or Jibreel knew that the tenth plague was a later invention. That would make sense if his god is the real one and the Bible isn't inspired.

letschat wrote:
Sure both have Spiritual origins, but the origin is what counts. One is from God the other is untested...but the results are there to see in every Islamic Sharia based country, and by those who claim to be following Allah today - the Islamic fundamentalists.

The so-called flaws in the bible have been debated since it was first written and it survives all attacks on it.

To be fair, if the Qur'an is held to the same standard as the Bible, it also "survives all attacks." There's nothing truly novel or unique about Muslim apologetics to make it substantially different than Christian or Jewish apologetics. If the Qur'an can be faulted for missing a plague, then the Torah can be faulted for not knowing which tribes are the twelve. Are they Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, Benjamin, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, and Asher as in Genesis 49 or are they Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, Ephraim, Manasseh, Benjamin, Dan, Asher, and Gad as in Numbers 1? The former list includes Levi in the count, but the latter omits it (Num. 1:47-54). To make up the difference, Numbers splits Joseph into two tribes (Ephraim and Manasseh). The New Testament has similar problems. Matthew and Mark each include a disciple names Thaddeus, but Luke omits him and includes a second Judas ("of James").

Apologists offer harmonizations for these details and then claim that the Bible withstands such skeptical scrutiny. If you're going to allow them for your own holy book and are are going to be consistent, you have to allow them for the others, too.

I'm reminded of something John Loftus wrote in his book, The End of Christianity:
Quote:
When it comes to Christianity, I agree with the Protestant criticisms of the Catholics as well as the Catholic criticisms of the Protestants. I agree with the fundamentalist criticisms of the liberals as well as the liberal criticisms of the fundamentalists. In addition, I agree with the Hindu, Muslim, and Jewish criticisms of Christianity, as well as the Christian criticisms of their religions. When they criticize each other, I think they're all right.

letschat wrote:
What one can perceive as a flaw is a matter of perception and expectation.
What is found within the book is a relationship with the Living God who loves us and wants us to be with him for eternity. Not separated for eternity.
He gave us a means to do so - himself, in Jesus - it is up to us to SEE it and respond. Or not. We are free to choose.

I have a few book recommendations.

Who Wrote the Bible by Richard Elliott Friedman is a superb look at the construction of the Old Testament text according to the Documentary Hypothesis.

A Brief Illustrated Guide To Understanding Islam is a short booklet that can be downloaded as a PDF. It's a heavily apologetic introduction to Islam and the Qur'an that I find fascinating, not so much for its content per se, but to show just how similar Christian and Muslim apologetics really are.

The Original Sources of the Qur'ân is a dated, but interesting comparison between the Qur'an and other documents that we have, but are often unknown, like Buddhist and apocryphal Christian texts. It's old enough to be in the public domain, so it's free if you can stomach reading a Google scan.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:09 am
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plagues of Egypt

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1. Islam presumes that the creature which spoke to Mohammed was from God.
Considering he contradicted YHVH – the God of Israel then it is obvious he is not.
When comparing the Two – what God says in one must be the same as what the God said in the other. If not – they are not the same God. Similarities are not enough.
2. One cannot believe in the bible if one does not believe in God. It is a supernatural book. Not to believe in Moses is to throw out the bible. If you have no faith at all, then why discuss any of this? Sure you can be interested in this stuff...but to what purpose if there is no belief?
3. The Passover is missing from the Koran…a pivotal event which reflects not only in the Jewish life, but also in regard to Jesus. So if the Koran is supposed to confirm the previous scriptures, to miss out on something so important means that it is purposeful. So who failed to mention it?
4. Numbering went haywire
5. 2 Kings 23
21 The king gave this order to all the people: “Celebrate the Passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in this Book of the Covenant.”
22 Neither in the days of the judges who led Israel nor in the days of the kings of Israel and the kings of Judah had any such Passover been observed.
23 But in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, this Passover was celebrated to the LORD in Jerusalem.
QUOTE: [Matthew Henry Commentary]
Commentary on verse 22
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/matthew-henry-complete/2-kings/23.h...

ie does not mean no Passover was held. There were however some pretty dark days amongst the previous kings.
6. During the time of King David the Tabernacle [or tent of meeting] was placed at the foot of Mount Mariah. That is where they generally sacrificed.
7. Thanks for your information and discussion. And some books to read.
I am sure you are coming from some strong head knowledge but sometimes head knowledge will keep you from knowing the One true God who loves you. I often find that the smartest people are Atheists...not because they are smart but because knowledge over rides the simplicity of belief.
Once you believe and receive the Holy Spirit - a new dimension opens - the spiritual and faith dimension which cannot be accepted by the brilliant.
Matthew 18:2-4 New International Version (NIV)
2 He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

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