Who sacrificed Jesus?

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marco
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Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Post by marco »

We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; Hebrews 9

The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?

It would be interesting to know what "take away the sins of many" means, if anything.

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marco
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Post by marco »

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Jesus was tried as a criminal and was punished. Retrospectively people decided there was some kind of sacrifice, but it doesn't seem that the Jews were standing round offering up a victim in a religious ritual, so it's hard to see where the sacrifice came in.

The bit about Christ's temporary demise offering the removal of sins is a complex idea that I doubt Jesus himself would have been able to explain. I wonder if he tried, somewhere, to explain how somebody sinning in the seventeenth century had his sin removed by Christ's crucifixion.

And Jesus apparently removed death or as some say: he conquered death.

This is superb fodder for the delusional Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 (KJV)

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

As far as I have seen, death has pretty much retained its sting today and the grave has been victorious over the millennia since Paul was knocked out.

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Post by Clownboat »

marco wrote:
We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; Hebrews 9

The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?

It would be interesting to know what "take away the sins of many" means, if anything.


Perhaps the blood is just a distraction? It seems like many of the ancient god concepts just loved blood. Perhaps they loved the smell of burnt fat like Yahweh's priest claimed he did too?
For a few examples, we can look to the Incas, Aztecs and Mayas. Their gods obviously loved blood as well and those gods followers were on the other side of the earth.

Leviticus 17:6 â–º
New International Version
The priest is to splash the blood against the altar of the LORD at the entrance to the tent of meeting and burn the fat as an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

Entirely barbaric and entirely human IMO.
Perhaps what this world needs is a godly God. These god concepts with human characteristics and personalities got us to human sacrifice.
You can build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day, or you can set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible being’s wrath. - KenRU

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Post by EarthScienceguy »

[Replying to post 1 by marco]
We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; Hebrews 9
God was the one who condemned Jesus to die.

Isaiah 53:9-11
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in His death, although He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush Him and cause Him to suffer. And when His soul is made a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, and the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. After the anguish of His soul, He will see the light of life and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant will justify many, and He will bear their iniquities.…

The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?

It would be interesting to know what "take away the sins of many" means, if anything.
1 John 2:2 "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

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Post #5

Post by SallyF »

Image

This is later propaganda.

The "Gospel" propaganda has the Jesus character as a political claimant to the throne of David.

The Jesus character failed.

His civil punishment by the civil authorities was NOT a religious human sacrifice to a barbaric deity.

Christianity has been a fraud from the start.

.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Post by marco »

Clownboat wrote:

For a few examples, we can look to the Incas, Aztecs and Mayas. Their gods obviously loved blood as well and those gods followers were on the other side of the earth.
One of the horrifying aspects of devotion to a god is that some of the sacrificial victims in the Mayan ceremonies, though they knew their hearts would be ripped from their living bodies, happily stepped forward in the sure knowledge they were serving their god. Nothing much has changed: religion still has that kind of influence even today, when people scream: God is great! He is certainly persuasive.

St Lawrence had such irrational faith in God's mercy that when he was being roasted alive, he wittily commented that that side was well done. Isn't it amazing that God was a silent spectator. It makes one ponder.

Clownboat wrote:
Perhaps what this world needs is a godly God.
I think a God with a sense of humour would be nice - but where to find the script writers? I suppose this need is why people deified Jesus and accused him of sacrificing himself. It would be interesting if he decided to pop down to Earth today. Sadly he seems to have visited while soldiers were fighting the Battle of the Somme, and nobody paid any attention. It was ever so.

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Post #7

Post by marco »

SallyF wrote:


His civil punishment by the civil authorities was NOT a religious human sacrifice to a barbaric deity.

Christianity has been a fraud from the start.

Yes he was when all is said and done a criminal. People can object that he didn't get a fair trial or he didn't defend himself properly, raving as he did about legions of angels, but Tacitus reliably tells us he was executed.

I think when the story writers talked of angels at the birth, gave a genealogy back to Neanderthal times and reported angels in the sepulchre we can quietly close the book with a smile - not mockery, of course since that is unkind - but a smile that wonders whether JK Rowling could have done a better presentation.

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #8

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
marco wrote: We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.

Christ is the (high) priest, and He sacrificed Himself.

Hebrews 7:27

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.


The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?
"Take away" as in gain forgiveness for; in which case there would be no judgment for those who are in Christ; their sins are 'covered over' by Him (and His blood).

Just as love can also cover over a multitude of sin; those who are in Christ have Him (and His blood) as their covering.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #9

Post by Zzyzx »

.
tam wrote: Christ is the (high) priest,
Appointed by whom?

Would that be the unknown / disputed author of Hebrews 4 (sometimes attributed to Paul/Saul) -- anointing Jesus long after he is said to have died?

Was he recognized as a 'high priest' by temple / Jewish / church officials? Citation?
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #10

Post by brunumb »

[Replying to post 1 by marco]
The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?
An excellent question. I have asked this many times over the last couple of decades and never received a credible answer. How does the temporary death of a God-man do anything?

If Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, then the penalty has been paid. That should be the end of the story. But someone apparently attached a codicil that says you have to believe the story before you reap the benefit. When did Jesus actually tell us this? If it is the belief that nullifies the debt, then the crucifixion was really just unnecessary window dressing.

Would the alleged sacrifice of Jesus still be valid if he got run over by a chariot, or trampled to death by rampaging goats, or simply died of cancer? there is nothing in the scenario that equates to Jesus being a sacrifice to atone for the sins of humanity. Sounds like a literary afterthought to me.
Christianty: 2000 years of making it up as you go along.

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