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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:45 pm
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Who sacrificed Jesus?

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We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; Hebrews 9

The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?

It would be interesting to know what "take away the sins of many" means, if anything.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:00 pm
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Jesus was tried as a criminal and was punished. Retrospectively people decided there was some kind of sacrifice, but it doesn't seem that the Jews were standing round offering up a victim in a religious ritual, so it's hard to see where the sacrifice came in.

The bit about Christ's temporary demise offering the removal of sins is a complex idea that I doubt Jesus himself would have been able to explain. I wonder if he tried, somewhere, to explain how somebody sinning in the seventeenth century had his sin removed by Christ's crucifixion.

And Jesus apparently removed death or as some say: he conquered death.

This is superb fodder for the delusional Paul:

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 (KJV)

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

As far as I have seen, death has pretty much retained its sting today and the grave has been victorious over the millennia since Paul was knocked out.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:30 pm
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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marco wrote:

We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; Hebrews 9

The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?

It would be interesting to know what "take away the sins of many" means, if anything.


Perhaps the blood is just a distraction? It seems like many of the ancient god concepts just loved blood. Perhaps they loved the smell of burnt fat like Yahweh's priest claimed he did too?
For a few examples, we can look to the Incas, Aztecs and Mayas. Their gods obviously loved blood as well and those gods followers were on the other side of the earth.

Leviticus 17:6 ►
New International Version
The priest is to splash the blood against the altar of the LORD at the entrance to the tent of meeting and burn the fat as an aroma pleasing to the LORD.

Entirely barbaric and entirely human IMO.
Perhaps what this world needs is a godly God. These god concepts with human characteristics and personalities got us to human sacrifice.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:02 pm
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This is later propaganda.

The "Gospel" propaganda has the Jesus character as a political claimant to the throne of David.

The Jesus character failed.

His civil punishment by the civil authorities was NOT a religious human sacrifice to a barbaric deity.

Christianity has been a fraud from the start.

.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:47 pm
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Clownboat wrote:



For a few examples, we can look to the Incas, Aztecs and Mayas. Their gods obviously loved blood as well and those gods followers were on the other side of the earth.


One of the horrifying aspects of devotion to a god is that some of the sacrificial victims in the Mayan ceremonies, though they knew their hearts would be ripped from their living bodies, happily stepped forward in the sure knowledge they were serving their god. Nothing much has changed: religion still has that kind of influence even today, when people scream: God is great! He is certainly persuasive.

St Lawrence had such irrational faith in God's mercy that when he was being roasted alive, he wittily commented that that side was well done. Isn't it amazing that God was a silent spectator. It makes one ponder.


Clownboat wrote:


Perhaps what this world needs is a godly God.


I think a God with a sense of humour would be nice - but where to find the script writers? I suppose this need is why people deified Jesus and accused him of sacrificing himself. It would be interesting if he decided to pop down to Earth today. Sadly he seems to have visited while soldiers were fighting the Battle of the Somme, and nobody paid any attention. It was ever so.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Thu Nov 07, 2019 5:58 pm
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SallyF wrote:




His civil punishment by the civil authorities was NOT a religious human sacrifice to a barbaric deity.

Christianity has been a fraud from the start.



Yes he was when all is said and done a criminal. People can object that he didn't get a fair trial or he didn't defend himself properly, raving as he did about legions of angels, but Tacitus reliably tells us he was executed.

I think when the story writers talked of angels at the birth, gave a genealogy back to Neanderthal times and reported angels in the sepulchre we can quietly close the book with a smile - not mockery, of course since that is unkind - but a smile that wonders whether JK Rowling could have done a better presentation.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:24 pm
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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Peace to you,

Quote:
[quote="marco"]
We learn in Hebrews that people die, and that only once. We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help.



Christ is the (high) priest, and He sacrificed Himself.

Hebrews 7:27

Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.



Quote:
The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?


"Take away" as in gain forgiveness for; in which case there would be no judgment for those who are in Christ; their sins are 'covered over' by Him (and His blood).

Just as love can also cover over a multitude of sin; those who are in Christ have Him (and His blood) as their covering.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:26 pm
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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tam wrote:

Christ is the (high) priest,

Appointed by whom?

Would that be the unknown / disputed author of Hebrews 4 (sometimes attributed to Paul/Saul) -- anointing Jesus long after he is said to have died?

Was he recognized as a 'high priest' by temple / Jewish / church officials? Citation?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:17 am
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Quote:
The other question is: by what theological device did Jesus "take away the sins of many"? Did he "take away" the punishment due to sinners? Or did he cause God to forget that sins had actually been committed?

An excellent question. I have asked this many times over the last couple of decades and never received a credible answer. How does the temporary death of a God-man do anything?

If Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins, then the penalty has been paid. That should be the end of the story. But someone apparently attached a codicil that says you have to believe the story before you reap the benefit. When did Jesus actually tell us this? If it is the belief that nullifies the debt, then the crucifixion was really just unnecessary window dressing.

Would the alleged sacrifice of Jesus still be valid if he got run over by a chariot, or trampled to death by rampaging goats, or simply died of cancer? there is nothing in the scenario that equates to Jesus being a sacrifice to atone for the sins of humanity. Sounds like a literary afterthought to me.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:55 am
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Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

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tam wrote:



Christ is the (high) priest, and He sacrificed Himself.


In fact he was sentenced to death, as were the two thieves who are reported to have been punished beside him. They stole, he blasphemed and the result was execution. None of them sacrificed themselves: they suffered the consequences of their actions.

The association of Christ's execution with religious ceremony is a poor metaphor. There is no connection whatsoever between Christ's making bold statements and humans through the world doing wrong. The theory of redemption by effectively putting one's tongue out to authority and getting smacked for it is certainly an interesting product of creative minds, as is the apotheosis of Christ and the Holy Spirit into a trinity with Yahweh. In short there is absolutely no sense in "he sacrificed himself for sins." He may well have had some glorious idea of a singular messianic role, but he was a child of his time, in a world of many gods. His ideas were learned from Scripture, which he dutifully imbibed.

tam wrote:


"Take away" as in gain forgiveness for; in which case there would be no judgment for those who are in Christ; their sins are 'covered over' by Him (and His blood).


Well "take away" doesn't mean what you say but I suppose we can attach whatever meaning we want if we convert it into religious theory. Pirates were often pardoned, and even raised to high positions, so I suppose sinners could be forgiven if God wanted to be merciful. Of course it is ludicrous that this forgiveness by God should involve the fatal intercession of some man. God forgives, regardless of what happens in London or Rome or Jerusalem.


tam wrote:


Just as love can also cover over a multitude of sin; those who are in Christ have Him (and His blood) as their covering.


But I suspect that "church" carries a private meaning here and has nothing to do with the Church that gave us Christmas and Immaculate Conceptions, the one that Jesus referred to in Matthew 16: 18.

Do you like the metaphor "covered in blood"? I used to find "washed in the blood of the lamb" both unpleasant and silly when I spoke as a child. Later the unpleasantness passed. Go well.

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