Who sacrificed Jesus?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #11

Post by marco »

tam wrote:

Christ is the (high) priest, and He sacrificed Himself.
In fact he was sentenced to death, as were the two thieves who are reported to have been punished beside him. They stole, he blasphemed and the result was execution. None of them sacrificed themselves: they suffered the consequences of their actions.

The association of Christ's execution with religious ceremony is a poor metaphor. There is no connection whatsoever between Christ's making bold statements and humans through the world doing wrong. The theory of redemption by effectively putting one's tongue out to authority and getting smacked for it is certainly an interesting product of creative minds, as is the apotheosis of Christ and the Holy Spirit into a trinity with Yahweh. In short there is absolutely no sense in "he sacrificed himself for sins." He may well have had some glorious idea of a singular messianic role, but he was a child of his time, in a world of many gods. His ideas were learned from Scripture, which he dutifully imbibed.
tam wrote:
"Take away" as in gain forgiveness for; in which case there would be no judgment for those who are in Christ; their sins are 'covered over' by Him (and His blood).
Well "take away" doesn't mean what you say but I suppose we can attach whatever meaning we want if we convert it into religious theory. Pirates were often pardoned, and even raised to high positions, so I suppose sinners could be forgiven if God wanted to be merciful. Of course it is ludicrous that this forgiveness by God should involve the fatal intercession of some man. God forgives, regardless of what happens in London or Rome or Jerusalem.

tam wrote:
Just as love can also cover over a multitude of sin; those who are in Christ have Him (and His blood) as their covering.
But I suspect that "church" carries a private meaning here and has nothing to do with the Church that gave us Christmas and Immaculate Conceptions, the one that Jesus referred to in Matthew 16: 18.

Do you like the metaphor "covered in blood"? I used to find "washed in the blood of the lamb" both unpleasant and silly when I spoke as a child. Later the unpleasantness passed. Go well.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #12

Post by marco »

brunumb wrote:


Would the alleged sacrifice of Jesus still be valid if he got run over by a chariot, or trampled to death by rampaging goats, or simply died of cancer? there is nothing in the scenario that equates to Jesus being a sacrifice to atone for the sins of humanity. Sounds like a literary afterthought to me.
Yes, the problem is that in being executed, Jesus is not the engineer of his sacrifice unless we accept that he deliberately provoked people by mocking what they believed. Had he taken his disciples to a cliff and instead of throwing harmless swine over, threw himself into the ocean, that would certainly be a sacrifice and doubtless pictures of the cliff top would replace the art round the crucifixion.

Drawing a relationship between somebody assaulting a child, say, and being forgiven because of Christ's suicide is just one of the many religious ideas that seem to meet with miraculous acceptance. Others involve Christ secretly landing on Earth in 1915 or thereabouts, Christ turning up bodily every time a priest says: "This is my body" or the notion that leopards and lions will chew grass in a world where Jesus is Prime Minister and folk still work as waiters and taxi drivers. O sancta simplicitas!

User avatar
tam
Prodigy
Posts: 4315
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 15 times
Contact:

Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #13

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
marco wrote:
tam wrote:

Christ is the (high) priest, and He sacrificed Himself.
In fact he was sentenced to death, as were the two thieves who are reported to have been punished beside him. They stole, he blasphemed and the result was execution. None of them sacrificed themselves: they suffered the consequences of their actions.
So your question (and title) were rhetorical then?

(Your question -> We also learn that somebody offered Christ as a sacrifice, like a bull or a pigeon, but I can't find who this officiating priest was. Can anyone help)


Though even the thief said Christ was innocent of wrongdoing. And Pilate said that he could find no charge against the man that was worthy of death. And there was no blasphemy.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

User avatar
SallyF
Guru
Posts: 1459
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:32 pm

Post #14

Post by SallyF »

Image

This was NOT a religious ceremony.

The idea that is was is propaganda.

Propaganda that appealed to the Jewish/Canaanite faction that still believed in human sacrifice to the god/s.

Human sacrifice to the god/s and drinking the blood and eating the meat of the human sacrifice was obviously not a new idea to them.

We should question why Christians playing the Great Game of Pretend continue to pretend to drink the blood and eat the meat of the dead, human sacrifice, Leader …?
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 14639
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 36 times
Been thanked: 44 times
Contact:

Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #15

Post by JehovahsWitness »

marco wrote:
Yes, the problem is that in being executed, Jesus is not the engineer of his sacrifice unless we accept that he deliberately provoked people by mocking what they believed.

Are you suggesting that he above was the case?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

Avoice
Under Probation
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:41 am
Location: USA / ISRAEL

Post #16

Post by Avoice »

He didnt

First of all, sacrificing humans to appease the gods is totally pagan. People recoil in disgust if watching a show about some tribal people throwing babies in a volcano. Jesus is no different. And as far as that goes the 'eat my body abd drink my blood' is also pagan. Dont bother with the 'its a metaphor'. Its dusgusting. Its as disgusting as if Jesus said 'this is my pe__s drink my urine so that you may have eternal life' pretty sick huh. But at keast drinking urine isnt so disgusting. God specifically said don't drink blood. So jesus uses it as a metaphor anyway? What if its not a metaphor? Hear his words. He seems very clear here.

" Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

If this 'metaphor' is about what Christians must do to be saved then why use a metaphor to describe what needs be done? So truth be told, it could mean eat his vomit. Who knows.

All that talk of eternal life may sound great. It alsi says in tge Christian testanent that even snake bites wont kill you. Sounds good really? Think again. Eternal life means never dying. Imagibe having to be a human forever. Born...20 years with your parents..school all ove again.....raisibg kids... burying parents...getting sick and dying...THEN BORN AGAIN....

Ive said it before and ill say it sgain -- jesus is more like satan than God. In fact hes just like him. God told ( not verbatim) satan he could do his work on job. But he said SAVE HIS LIFE.
NO ONE GET TO THE FATHER BUT ______ How? We all must go through satan. Right through him. Jesus told us how to test a person. BY THE FRUIT THEY PRODUCE. And what fid jesys produce? He git billions of people to call him lord and didn't do anything for them. He took gids glory and got people to disobey God. That us exactky what he did. Oh yeah...promuses promises.... promises to save you. Yeah for himself. He took God's glory. He fooled billions. Because all they hear is 'eternal life'. Yes, jesus even says he has power over all flesh. ALL FLESH? ALLLLL FLESSHH.

I WANT TO DIE SOMEDAY. JESUS , LIKE SATAN LIVES FOREVER. HE IS LONELY AND WANTS OTHERS WITH HIM.

Avoice
Under Probation
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:41 am
Location: USA / ISRAEL

Post #17

Post by Avoice »

Sacrifices ate only acceptable in the olace God chooses. And the sacrifices had to be done a certain way. Jesus was not an acceptable sacrifice

Why dont jews still have the sacrificial system? Becsuse it must be done where God said. Gid even said we dont get to choose. And jesus died dusgustingly on a tree at a place called the skull. OMG!! Hiw dare anyone think that is a respectful sacrifice to the creator. Are you kidding me? Shame on thise who think jesus' sacrifice was acceptable.

Scripture tells us we will becwithout you the sacrifucial system many days. But it will be reinststed in the end times and tge Messiah will offer sacrifices. Fir HIMSELF and for the people. So its nit jesus. He dued once for ALL SINS FOREVER IT SAYS. THAT'S A LIE BECAUSE SACRIFUCES WILL TAKE PLACE ONCE AGAIN. IN THE THIRD TEMPLE ON THE ALTER..IN JERUSALEM.

THE SKULL? UGH!! OMG

Avoice
Under Probation
Posts: 726
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:41 am
Location: USA / ISRAEL

Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #18

Post by Avoice »

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

He didn't die FOR their sins.

He died because of their sins

If the story is true he died because of their sins. They could have saved his life but the veibg obedient to God messes up their good times.

Well, God is merciful indeed. He has allowed them to live out their life on earth in peace. No worries. Thinking they can skirt the law, kill God (jesus) and be rewarded.
They go to the grave happy. Gid is merciful. They got exactky the life they wanted. Too bad they didn't wait. But they didnt trust God to be there for them in death. Oh well.

User avatar
1213
Savant
Posts: 7633
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:06 am
Location: Finland
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 7 times
Contact:

Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #19

Post by 1213 »

marco wrote: …It would be interesting to know what "take away the sins of many" means, if anything.
Jesus declared sins forgiven. So, I think “taking the sins of many� means that Jesus came on earth and declared the message God had given to him.

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

Because of that Jesus was killed. And that is why it can be said he was killed because of our sins. And that is why he can be called sacrifice. Or it could be said that he sacrificed, used his life for us, for our benefit, so that we could get the message and become righteous and have the life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Who sacrificed Jesus?

Post #20

Post by marco »

1213 wrote:
marco wrote: …It would be interesting to know what "take away the sins of many" means, if anything.
Jesus declared sins forgiven. So, I think “taking the sins of many� means that Jesus came on earth and declared the message God had given to him.

Your explanation does not remotely relate to the words "take away the sins of many".
1213 wrote:
But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

Because of that Jesus was killed.
No, he was killed because he provoked pious people, suggesting he was older than Abraham and was the Son of God. The people of the religion he used considered this blasphemy. The Romans considered him a criminal. He was retrospectively regarded as a messenger, messiah and even a god.
1213 wrote:
And that is why it can be said he was killed because of our sins.
There is no link between my neighbour lying and stealing and a 1st century preacher. He died because he chose to be provocative.
1213 wrote:
Or it could be said that he sacrificed, used his life for us, for our benefit, so that we could get the message and become righteous and have the life.
Well if that's what the man thought, he was mistaken. Billions have died since and received no benefit from his crucifixion. Babies who have died after a few days have not sinned; did Christ benefit them? Or are the only beneficiaries murderers and rapists?

1213 wrote: These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.[/i]
Mat. 25:46
Why are we talking about the righteous when the sacrifice was for sinners? And why, given Christ's big gesture, are people still going to eternal punishment. Did Christ have to make things so complicated?

Post Reply