Mansions in Heaven

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Zzyzx
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Post by Zzyzx »

.
Kudos to those who attempt to defend 'rooms in the sky' vs. 'mansions in the sky' -- as though either one makes sense.
historia wrote:
Zzyzx wrote: Where do the majority of Christians get their information?
From their church.
In other words they are told by clergy what to believe?

Indoctrination works for many. Just believe what the clergy says.
historia wrote: A majority of Christians also don't speak English,
1. My statement specifically referred to the US “In the United States, 55% of survey respondents who read the Bible reported using the King James Version in 2014 https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › Bible_translations_into_English�. [Note: US = United States]

2. The Bible has been translated into 698 languages. That should cover most cases – among Christians who happen to be literate.
historia wrote: let alone derive their beliefs from their own private interpretation of a 17th century translation of the Bible in a language they don't understand.
I do not disagree with demeaning the KJV (and all other versions of the Bible)

If this is to say that Christians are in general incapable, unmotivated, disinclined (etc) toward doing their own thinking regarding Bible tales, I do not disagree.
historia wrote: Moreover, the assumption that we can somehow divine what people believe simply from what translation of the Bible they use is dubious, at best.
Is this to say that Christians are incapable of understanding ‘mansions’? If so, based upon these debates (and life in the Bible Belt), perhaps I should not disagree.
historia wrote: And, for clarity, the most widely cited survey of Bible usage in the United States is the annual American Bible Society State of the Bible report, which is based on surveys conducted by the Barna Group, and shows that nearly 2/3 of American Bible readers prefer modern translations, while less than 1/3 prefer the KJV, a number that continues to decline.
From your own source
The King James Version continues to be the version Bible users prefer most often, with 31% using this translation.
historia wrote: However, the King James has seen a nine-percentage point decrease in usage since 2016 and 14% decrease since Barna first measured this in 2011. Use of the King James Version (KJV) is directly related to age. Nearly half of all Elders use the KJV most often (49%), compared to 40% of Boomers, 34% of Gen-Xers and 14% of Millennials.
It is interesting to note that younger generations are also leaving Christianity.
Answers in Genesis wrote:It comes as no surprise to anyone keeping a finger on the pulse of our culture that a dramatically high number of young people are leaving the church. Many of these formerly churched individuals are now identifying as “nones� (religiously unaffiliated).
https://answersingenesis.org/christiani ... istianity/
Perhaps young people are not enamored of the new Bible versions – or of the Bible in general – or of Christian dogma in general (in spite of vigorous bailing by ‘the faithful’). The young may also tend to be less gullible or naive than the old guard, more inclined to accept science over superstition, and more likely to have learned some critical / analytical thinking skills.
historia wrote: The only thing that's difficult to understand, then, is why you thought this was a compelling argument.
Yup, quote their own literature to them and watch as they ‘throw it under the bus’

It is difficult to understand why anyone of sound mind would attempt to defend a story about mansions in the sky (and make it sound like it was ‘only’ rooms).

But, carry on demonstrating to readers the value and tactics of Apologetics. I’ll continue to do what I can to help encourage the downward spiral.
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If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

For a quick tutorial on science vs. religion, compare modern internet weather radar to ancient religious beliefs and superstitions about weather

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Re: Mansions in Heaven

Post by tam »

[Replying to post 1 by SallyF]

May you all have peace!


However one wishes to translate it... it means a place. My Lord went to make a place in His Father's house for all who belong to Him.


My Father's house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. John 14:2,3


So that each person has their proper place and fits 'just so'.

Just as my Lord also places His sheep 'just so' in His Body (1 Corinth 12:15-26) and His Body is the Temple (John 2:21)... and is not the Temple His Father's house?

To those selling doves He said, “Get these out of here! How dare you turn My Father’s house into a marketplace!� John 2:16



It has nothing to do with a physical house or material things. It is the place Christ has prepared for us, the Household of God, in His Body which is the Temple which is His Father's House.






May anyone with ears, hear. May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear and get a sense of these things. May anyone who thirsts, as they Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Danmark
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Post by Danmark »

historia wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:
Where do the majority of Christians get their information?
From their church.

A majority of Christians also don't speak English, let alone derive their beliefs from their own private interpretation of a 17th century translation of the Bible in a language they don't understand.

Moreover, the assumption that we can somehow divine what people believe simply from what translation of the Bible they use is dubious, at best.

And, for clarity, the most widely cited survey of Bible usage in the United States is the annual American Bible Society State of the Bible report, which is based on surveys conducted by the Barna Group, and shows that nearly 2/3 of American Bible readers prefer modern translations, while less than 1/3 prefer the KJV, a number that continues to decline. From the 2017 report:
Barna Group wrote:
The King James Version continues to be the version Bible users prefer most often, with 31% using this translation. However, the King James has seen a nine-percentage point decrease in usage since 2016 and 14% decrease since Barna first measured this in 2011. Use of the King James Version (KJV) is directly related to age. Nearly half of all Elders use the KJV most often (49%), compared to 40% of Boomers, 34% of Gen-Xers and 14% of Millennials.
I was raised in the church, Free Methodist, in the 50's and 60's. My dad was a preacher's kid. He liked the RSV, thought it preserved much of poetry, rhythm and language of the KJV. I agree, tho' today I mainly use the ESV.

One of the problems with some of the more modern versions and paraphrases may be they sound too common, ordinary. Perhaps their was some mystery and awe that was inspired by the KJV and even RSV compared to modern translations.

As to 'mansion,' in English its original meaning, from the Latin, simply meant a place to stay, a residence. It has come to mean a very stately or palatial residence. I wonder if John's use of 'mansion,' was an influence on that development.

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historia
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Post by historia »

Zzyzx wrote:
Kudos to those who attempt to defend 'rooms in the sky' vs. 'mansions in the sky' -- as though either one makes sense.
You seem to be having difficulty following the thread.

The OP is, in essence, asking what the author of John 14:2 was describing, and what Christians today think about it.

bjs' reply in post #3 helps clarify what the original author was describing.

Your reply in post #4 doesn't meaningfully answer either question, and so is something of a non sequitor.

Neither of these two replies, nor any other reply to date in the thread, constitute either a defense or an attack on the truth of any particular belief, let alone the straw man belief you've offered here. They are just attempts at providing information -- some more successfully than others.
Zzyzx wrote:
historia wrote:
Moreover, the assumption that we can somehow divine what people believe simply from what translation of the Bible they use is dubious, at best.
Is this to say that Christians are incapable of understanding ‘mansions’?
No, it means we have no way of knowing how these readers interpret this passage or what they believe is being described here.

For example, they may not interpret the verse literally at all. Or maybe they know from their church, a commentary, or even just a Google search, that the Greek term here means 'dwelling place'. We can't tell one way or the other just from the mere fact that they prefer the KJV.

This is why your quoting the KJV and citing the number of Americans who prefer this interpretation is non-sensical. It doesn't tell us either what the original author intended or what Christians today believe. It doesn't even tell us what a majority of Christians read when they come across this verse, as the vast majority of Christians worldwide don't read the KJV. It's just a fail.

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Post by Diagoras »

[Replying to post 24 by historia]

So let’s get at least one reference point. What’s your expectation (as asked for in the OP)?

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Zzyzx
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Post by Zzyzx »

.
historia wrote: The OP is, in essence, asking what the author of John 14:2 was describing, and what Christians today think about it.
Agreed. That is what the OP is asking.
historia wrote: No, it means we have no way of knowing how these readers interpret this passage or what they believe is being described here.
Is this to say that the OP question cannot be answered?
historia wrote: It doesn't tell us either what the original author intended or what Christians today believe.
Agreed. We do not know the intent of the writer John 14:2 and words chosen can be variously translated. Additionally, since original writing from John is not available, we have no way of knowing if his words were accurately transcribed through hand written copies of copies of copies.

However, if the KJV is wrong, Christians have been reading a false claim since 1611.

Although there is no way to know ‘what Christians today believe’, once they realize that the revered KJV contained that ‘error’, they might rightly wonder what other errors it contains (presented as ‘gospel truth’ or ‘the word of God’).
historia wrote: It doesn't even tell us what a majority of Christians read when they come across this verse, as the vast majority of Christians worldwide don't read the KJV. It's just a fail.
Yup, we don’t know what Christians ‘worldwide’ read or believe. However, we do know that the Bible version that dominated for centuries clearly specified ‘mansions’. It would not be surprising if present Christians no longer believe in sky mansions or rooms or whatever was supposedly promised.
historia wrote: bjs' reply in post #3 helps clarify what the original author was describing.
We are indeed fortunate to have one among us who can ‘clarify what the original author was describing’ – even though, as you say, “It doesn't tell us either what the original author intended.�
historia wrote: let alone the straw man belief you've offered here.
Yup, ‘straw-man’ – quoting the KJV directly.
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Non-Theist

If you stop claiming knowledge of invisible, undetectable unicorns, I will stop challenging your claim. Same goes for gods

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

For a quick tutorial on science vs. religion, compare modern internet weather radar to ancient religious beliefs and superstitions about weather

"Demand money with the threat of violence and you'll get arrested. Do it with the threat of eternal damnation and it's tax deductible"

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Post by SallyF »

Like many, many, many things in the numerous Christianities that have been accepted for century after century as meaning precisely what they have been translated as, the notion of individual "mansions" does not sit well with certain folks who have been regularly dumping ballast out of their belief balloons.

But we have no evidence for individual mansions (or some sort of divine Christ-centred commune) other than translations and interpretation of the original propaganda ... and the imaginations of believers.

And in this evidence-free environment of fact-free faith, one adherent's imagination is as valid as another's … in my view.

We saw that our Christian friend in my example above was looking forward to his very own mansion, and maybe a chauffeured limousine when got tired of flying around Heaven (he imagines).

There are also Christian folks who imagine living (if that's what souls do) in the Divine Big House listening to endless harp sonatas and an eternity of "I told you so" from those Christians who got it right.

Another rapture-ready Christian friend has imagined (he says "speculated") on the variety of mansion on offer:

Image
The Super Saint Mansion: This is the home of those rare folks who totally commit themselves to the task of advancing the Kingdom of God.

Image
The Average Christian Mansion: In heaven, even the average believer will enjoy living quarters that will be elegant by earthly standards.

Image
The Struggling Believer Mansion: This home is for people who made it into heaven by the skin of their teeth. It's far better to live as a pauper in heaven, than to face the alternative.
https://www.raptureready.com/mansions-in-heaven/

And above we have the expectations of a modern-day Christian ...

One who offers the same absence of independently verifiable evidence as every other Christian ... in my view.

We also have examples here of some of the very good reasons why we Atheists are Atheists.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

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Post by SallyF »

This Christian …

Patriarch Bishop Dr. Joh Seer is the Overseer of APOSTLE & PROPHET ASIA FEDERATION & the WORLD BISHOP COUNCIL FEDERATION. He is also the President of ASSEMBLIES OF CHRISTIAN (Malaysia), Chancellor of HOLY SPIRIT INSTITUTE & Chairman of online Christian Radio SUARA PROFETIK ASIA/PROPHETIC VOICE OF ASIA.

Has personally SEEN his own mansion in Heaven …!

This ‘mansion’is not symbolic or imaginary but a real place of rest,a home for us to abode in the new Jerusalem.This “mansion�is one of such heavenly reward that is being prepared for every child of God who has lead a live of doing God’s work while on earth.I am telling you this now because I have personally seen my own mansion in heaven.As the matter of fact,it was my “generational family mansion�.By the grace of God,the LORD has permitted me to see my mansion and in this ,I am glad.It was revealed by a divine dream from the Holy Ghost. https://apostleseerdiary.wordpress.com/ ... ers-house/

The good Patriarch Bishop presents his contemporary expectation with as much faith and absence of evidence as every other Christian ... I suggest.

I also suggest - once more - that we are in the realms of fantasy with all Christian beliefs.

Some articles of faith are just more fantastical than others.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.

"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.

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Post by William »

[Replying to post 28]

SallyF: I also suggest - once more - that we are in the realms of fantasy with all Christian beliefs.

Some articles of faith are just more fantastical than others.


William: Mine is "The Hub of The Hologram Universes". It is not so much a 'final destination' but rather a place of continued learning and helping as I adjust to the new reality after the old one.

The whole place is the 'Mansion' even that it contains all other 'mansions' - manifolds of experience - individuals (theists and non theist) have created for themselves.

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Danmark
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Re: Mansions in Heaven

Post by Danmark »

SallyF wrote: What was REALLY on offer (real or otherwise) by the writers of the Christian-Jewish propaganda in the first century of the Common Era …?

What do 21st Century Christians expect …?
John 14 may not be the best reference for the nature of the after life Jesus promised to prepare for the believers. I suggest Luke 23:43

And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.� And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.�

'Paradise' comes from the Persian for 'garden' and has come to mean a wonderful place where we will be happy for ever just being there, a place of joy, contentment after slogging thru this short brutish life on Earth. To be more specific is to cherish the metaphor and forget the meaning.

Of course the whole concept is nonsense, but at least we should try to get the nonsense correct. :) Of more import... or disturbance to the believer is that the message from Jesus to the thief on an adjoining cross is that paradise is where he would go immediately after death.
This appears to directly contradict long standing Christian doctrine and specifically the Apostles' Creed:
Jesus Christ... who was crucified,
died and was buried;
he descended into hell;
on the third day he rose again from the dead.
...

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