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onewithhim
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:26 pm  JESUS IS NOT GOD Reply with quote

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:45 pm
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

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[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

Quote:


Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?



I believe these verses do support the view that Jesus is not God, so that is where I stand.

I do not believe he claimed to be God.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:59 pm
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Checkpoint wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]
I believe these verses do support the view that Jesus is not God, so that is where I stand.

I do not believe he claimed to be God.

Even though all the first-hand hearers of His statements clearly did? That's a huge reason why the Holy Spirit (through John) said what He said. He clearly related to us what Jesus's audience heard and understood, meaning for us to understand it in the same way.

Grace and peace to you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Mon Dec 02, 2019 5:48 pm
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

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PinSeeker wrote:

Checkpoint wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]
I believe these verses do support the view that Jesus is not God, so that is where I stand.

I do not believe he claimed to be God.

Even though all the first-hand hearers of His statements clearly did? That's a huge reason why the Holy Spirit (through John) said what He said. He clearly related to us what Jesus's audience heard and understood, meaning for us to understand it in the same way.
.
Grace and peace to you.



Not at all.

Jesus disputed their response and certainly did not confirm it.

Elsewhere he called them children of the devil and of Gehenna.

They were his bitter enemies and plotted his death.

The Holy Spirit gives them no credibility.

May the Lord bless you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:47 pm
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I agree. Jesus adamantly disputed the accusations by the Jewish leaders. They tried to get him in trouble with the people for "claiming to be God." They tried very hard to tarnish his reputation, so the people would not follow him. They were only concerned about their wealth and position in the community. They said:

"If we let him go on this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation....So from that day on they conspired to kill him." (John 11:48,53)


The Jewish leaders knew very well that Jesus never claimed to be God. Indeed, when he was hanging in agony, and they walked by, taunting him, they said:"He has put his trust in God; let Him now rescue him if He wants him, for he said, 'I am God's Son.'" (Matthew 27:43)

Not "God," but God's SON.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Tue Dec 03, 2019 1:11 am
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[Replying to post 12 by PinSeeker]

1st century evidence, please.???

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:47 am
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Checkpoint wrote:

PinSeeker wrote:

Checkpoint wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]
I believe these verses do support the view that Jesus is not God, so that is where I stand.

I do not believe he claimed to be God.

Even though all the first-hand hearers of His statements clearly did? That's a huge reason why the Holy Spirit (through John) said what He said. He clearly related to us what Jesus's audience heard and understood, meaning for us to understand it in the same way.
.
Grace and peace to you.



Not at all.

Jesus disputed their response and certainly did not confirm it.

Elsewhere he called them children of the devil and of Gehenna.

They were his bitter enemies and plotted his death.

The Holy Spirit gives them no credibility.

May the Lord bless you.

Jesus didn’t “dispute” anything. And they were not His “bitter enemies,” they were His countrymen and — supposedly — His allies, even family. When He very clearly proclaimed Himself to be God, they picked up stones with every intention of administering the punishment God had prescribed in His Law for blasphemy, they being the good Jews they were.

In the same way, they were going to stone Mary for adultery.

At any rate, in doing so, they proved by their actions — which speak much louder than mere words — that they knew exactly what Jesus was saying/claiming (that He was God). The Holy Spirit lends them no credibility but rather exposes, by clearly revealing their unbelief, their very lack of credibility.

To dispute this is on the order of denying the nose on one’s face.

Yes, unbelievers are children of the devil and of Gehenna. Not sure of the point you were trying to make with that, but with all respect and love, it backfired. He’s not “disputing” anything there, either, but merely calling them out for what they are: unbelievers.

Grace and peace to you.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:57 am
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Tcg wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

This is not the recipe for a mere man:

    Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

More of a God/Man hybrid. Christians balk at that definition, but it is clearly what is being described. So, yes, Jesus isn't fully God, but he isn't fully human either.


Tcg



RESPONSE: If he is not God, why isn't he fully human? Tell me, was Matthew a witness to Jesus' birth? If not, where did he get his information?
Eh?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 18: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:09 am
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polonius wrote:

Tcg wrote:

[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]

This is not the recipe for a mere man:

    Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

More of a God/Man hybrid. Christians balk at that definition, but it is clearly what is being described. So, yes, Jesus isn't fully God, but he isn't fully human either.


Tcg



RESPONSE: If he is not God, why isn't he fully human? Tell me, was Matthew a witness to Jesus' birth? If not, where did he get his information?
Eh?

He WAS fully human. The Holy Spirit caused his being to be transferred into Mary's womb, shielded from her imperfect DNA. He only got DNA that was perfected by Jehovah. He developed into a perfect human being. He was indeed fully human, and perfect at that.

Matthew was one of the 12 Apostles, and we can be confident that he had a close, intimate relationship with Jesus, so he would have gotten his information straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 19: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:47 pm
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onewithhim wrote:

He WAS fully human.

Absolutely. And also fully God, as His Name, Immanuel, proclaims:

    "...the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying, '...the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel."

And Matthew clarifies this for us by referring to this passage directly, relating to us the angel of the Lord (God is called Lord here) saying to Joseph in a dream:

    "'Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.' Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord (again, by God, the Lord) through the prophet (Isaiah): Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel,' which translated means, 'God with us'" [Matthew 1:20-23 (parenthetical phrases mine; God is called both God and Lord, and Jesus is called both God and Lord).


onewithhim wrote:

The Holy Spirit caused his being to be transferred into Mary's womb, shielded from her imperfect DNA. He only got DNA that was perfected by Jehovah. He developed into a perfect human being. He was indeed fully human, and perfect at that.

Now, I'm not arguing with this, really, but physical DNA really has nothing to do with it. I'm certain that if there had been forensic scientists in that day and one (or several) had conducted a DNA test on Mary and Jesus, mother and son would have been scientifically proved to be related beyond a shadow of a doubt. But there's no need to quibble about that. Like you say, He was indeed fully human, and born of a woman (Mary).

onewithhim wrote:

Matthew was one of the 12 Apostles, and we can be confident that he had a close, intimate relationship with Jesus, so he would have gotten his information straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

Sure, but even so, God breathed His Word into (inspired) Matthew via His Holy Spirit. So it's really not about Matthew at all, ultimately.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 20: Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:15 pm
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[Replying to post 16 by Pinseeker]

Quote:

Jesus didn’t “dispute” anything. And they were not His “bitter enemies,” they were His countrymen and — supposedly — His allies, even family. When He very clearly proclaimed Himself to be God, they picked up stones with every intention..


This statement contradicts both itself and what Jesus said.

[
Quote:


34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’ ? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


Jesus disputes their take, and thereby, your take.

Grace and peace to you too.


Last edited by Checkpoint on Tue Dec 03, 2019 5:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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