Is any of this Jesus' fault?

[Elijah John]

Claims of perfection and claims of Divinity on behalf of Jesus has led to critique of his character here, on this site. Fairly or unfairly.

For debate:

1) Would any criticism of Jesus character be needed if it were not claimed that he was "perfect" and an "unblemished sacrifice for sin"?

2) Of if it weren't claimed by many that Jesus was God?

3) Is any of this Jesus own fault? Or do such claims made by others on Jesus behalf fairly provoke and invite criticism?

[Elijah John]

Jesus himself claimed to be God as has been pointed out many times in many threads here

That is highly debatable, and is not established fact. In other words, opinion noted.

Therefore, he expects and hopes that people worship him as God because he is worthy of it. In fact, when people DID worship him as God, he didn't tell them to stop (Matt. 28:17, for example). It saddens him when people are blind and refuse to do so.

By the way, the word "perfect" as it is used in the Bible doesn't mean "sin-free". It means "whole", "complete", "lacking for nothing". I have seen it misunderstood in other threads as well and just want to clarify that.

So then, scrutiny and even criticism and questioning him is fair game. Or as the saying goes, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof".

And by the way, where is it recorded in any Gospel that Jesus is saddened when people don't worship him as God?

[Tcg]

Jesus himself claimed to be God as has been pointed out many times in many threads here.

One has to wonder why it would need to be pointed out so many times if Jesus stated it clearly.

Therefore, he expects and hopes that people worship him as God because he is worthy of it. In fact, when people DID worship him as God, he didn't tell them to stop (Matt. 28:17, for example). It saddens him when people are blind and refuse to do so.

The verse following the one you referenced contains a claim that would be very odd for God to make:

• 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

Why would God need for "all authority" to be given to him?

How could there be a time when he didn't already posses it?


Tcg

[marco]

1) Would any criticism of Jesus character be needed if it were not claimed that he was "perfect" and an "unblemished sacrifice for sin"?

If it was accepted he wasn't perfect / God but he sinned occasionally, was rude occasionally, was thoughtless occasionally and made blunders, then apart from pointing these out, there would be little to debate. He might be placed lower in goodness than, say, St. Francis or Billy Graham.

Is any of this Jesus own fault? Or do such claims made by others on Jesus behalf fairly provoke and invite criticism?

Jesus set himself up as guide, director, shepherd, the way and the truth - no small boast - and on this he is judged, and often found wanting. (Loss of temper, treatment of family, calling other people names, extravagant predictions.) If he was just a decent preacher why on Earth would he tell people, who honoured the Prophets that "before Abraham was, I am" ? The deity might go but the flaws still remain.

Instead of teasing the apostles with "Who do men say that I am? " he could have said clearly he was no divinity, just a guy from Nazareth with a tale to tell. But I don't think he thought so.

[Stelar_7]

1) Would any criticism of Jesus character be needed if it were not claimed that he was "perfect" and an "unblemished sacrifice for sin"?

Sure. Jesus attacked merchants at a temple, destroyed a herd of swine and a fig tree. The tree is just property destruction, assuming someone owned it, but the swine herd would have been a major asset and the assault should definitely have landed him in jail.

2) Of if it weren't claimed by many that Jesus was God?

See above

3) Is any of this Jesus own fault? Or do such claims made by others on Jesus behalf fairly provoke and invite criticism?

This seems like the third repetition of the same question. If Jesus is god, then everything is his fault, unless he was unable to decide between multiple possible universes.

If he is just some guy, then only the stuff he did is his fault, like everyone else.

If he's just a character in Paul's story then we should blame Paul more, though that blame passes to every other person who perpetuated the lie.

[Divine Insight]

By blaming God for all this, aren't you letting Jesus' "biographers" off the hook? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, and for that matter, Paul?

Absolutely. But why should that be a problem?

If Christianity is true then Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul are already off the hook anyway. You seem to be forgetting that having Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul writing the Gospels would have been God's Plan. So you can't be blaming Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, or Paul for anything. It would all be God's fault including any errors and/or misunderstanding that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John or Paul might have introduced into the theology.

If this religion is true, and there truly is a God then it's all necessarily God's fault.

In fact, if Christianity is false and the God of the Old Testament is true, then the gross confusion over this would still be entirely God's fault. The same is true with Islam.

In short, Elijah John, there is no possible way to justify or redeem any of these Abrahamic religions, because for any of them to be true the God behind the true one would be responsible for everything that is misunderstood by anyone who doesn't believe in the true version.

So there's no hope to justify any of these theologies in terms of any actual God.

The only rational conclusion that can be had is that all of them are nothing more than the wild imagination of men who have created these religions based on their own ideas of what they think some imaginary God might be like.

That's the only answer that makes any sense.