CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR, BASIC CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
………………………………..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

Notice the use of the word 'three' in every declaration/description of the trinity. And, of course the word 'trinity' itself includes the understanding of three.

………………………………....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

((Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.))
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…� - 20:31.

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God! If they had heard this, there would have been no need for false witnesses to have Jesus immediately stoned to death.
………………………………...............

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed long after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" is a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth in the OT as well as the NT.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear, incomplete references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) is a tragic error.

[onewithhim]

Does anyone have an idea as to why a Mystery should be thrown in to the pot of non-confusing, clear cut theological statements concerning who God is, just to muddy the waters and cause people to think it's OK to accept something that nobody can really explain and that doesn't make a whole lot of sense?

[polonius]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (I John 5:7)

RESPONSE: I think your quoted bible claim has been removed from most modern bibles since it was a 6th century addition added to prove the existence of a Trinity. Can you find it in earlier Bibles

[polonius]

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (I John 5:7)

RESPONSE: I think your quoted bible claim has been removed from most modern bibles since it was a 6th century addition added to prove the existence of a Trinity. Can you find it in earlier Bibles

See for example :1 John 5:7 and the Record in Heaven
https://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/ ... eaven.html

1 John 5:7 is probably one of the most controversial verses in the Bible. The reason it is so controversial is that all the modern translations, except the New King James, remove this verse. But, even the NKJV has a footnote with this verse saying that it is not found in the oldest Greek manuscripts.

[onewithhim]

I think my question above wasn't very clear.

I asked if someone could explain why God would want to muddy the waters of clear, reasonable, long-standing theology (of one individual who is God), and suddenly throw into this a monkey-wrench of confusion, with a new doctrine that is mysterious, defies explanation, and raises more questions than it answers.

Wouldn't our loving God want us to understand Him? After centuries of looking at Him one way, all of a sudden people were to learn something completely different about Him?

[onewithhim]

Why would He pull such a prank on unsuspecting humans? To indicate He was one thing but then suddenly He says that He is something else?

For thousands of years He was one Person, YHWH, Almighty God. Then 2,000 years ago He switched His identity? And this identity wasn't even an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church until after the 4th century A.D.! (So The Trinity really didn't officially exist until after the Council of 325 A.D..)

Why would God do this?

[polonius]

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

RESPONSE: Here is the obvious error. If two or three things are completely equal, then they are identical and cannot be differentiated in any way.

Or complete "homology" is "identity."

[onewithhim]

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

RESPONSE: Here is the obvious error. If two or three things are completely equal, then they are identical and cannot be differentiated in any way.

Or complete "homology" is "identity."

That is true. And what do we see in the Scriptures? The differentiation of the Father from the Son and His Holy Spirit. All three have different aspects. So they are not homogeneous. They cannot all be equal.