It's Beginning to Feel a Lot Like Mithras

[SallyF]

The Christian-Jewish propaganda does NOT say anything about celebrating the Divine Leader's birthday. We were only instructed to pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood, for example.

I propose that Christianity has been a fraud from the very start.

Is stealing the birthdays of other supposed god-men part of the fraudulence …?

[bjs]

[Replying to SallyF]

You say, “Here ya go…� but you still have not supported your case.

The first three statements you quote from the Watchtower are basically correct. We have no command from Jesus to celebrate his birth, there are no recorded celebrations of Jesus birth in the first two centuries of Christianity, and the Bible does not record the date of his birth. I assume that “243 C.E� refers to the De paschæ computes that Z mentioned in his post.

However the central issue of your proposal is stated, but never supported. JW’s do claim that Christmas has pagan roots. Repeating a false idea does not make it true.

You have not yet provided any evidence that Christmas in general, and specifically the date of December 25, has pagan roots. You have still not addressed the evidence which has been provided and which refutes your proposal.

Please do not provide quotes from people who agree with your proposal. I am sure that you can find someone who will say anything. Instead, provide evidence that your proposal is accurate and address the evidence which shows that the proposal is inaccurate.

[SallyF]

[Replying to SallyF]

You say, “Here ya go…� but you still have not supported your case.

The first three statements you quote from the Watchtower are basically correct. We have no command from Jesus to celebrate his birth, there are no recorded celebrations of Jesus birth in the first two centuries of Christianity, and the Bible does not record the date of his birth. I assume that “243 C.E� refers to the De paschæ computes that Z mentioned in his post.

However the central issue of your proposal is stated, but never supported. JW’s do claim that Christmas has pagan roots. Repeating a false idea does not make it true.

You have not yet provided any evidence that Christmas in general, and specifically the date of December 25, has pagan roots. You have still not addressed the evidence which has been provided and which refutes your proposal.

Please do not provide quotes from people who agree with your proposal. I am sure that you can find someone who will say anything. Instead, provide evidence that your proposal is accurate and address the evidence which shows that the proposal is inaccurate.

My PROPOSAL is that Christianity has been a fraud from the start.

I have initiated NUMEROUS threads exploring that proposal.

Not a single soul has EVER presented a single scrap of evidence to move beyond the proposal that it is only "highly likely" there ever was a Human Jesus, let alone a Magic Jesus.

The thrust of this specific thread is that the initial Christian-Jewish propagandists said NOTHING of Jesus being the birthday boy on any particular date and instructing us to hold a party for him.

Our friends in the Watchtower consider it unbiblical that we do.

You may know better.

Our friends in the Church of the Roman Empire tell us that the first surprise party was not held until more that two centuries after the Divine Leader had fluttered up to the ceiling of the Dome of Heaven.

Winter solstice god and godman parties were all the rage all over the planet at that time … (we've seen a few examples here)

But poor Jesus didn't have one.

It's not hard to join the dots.




But perhaps YOU can demonstrate the primacy of the idea of a birthday party for the Jesus god-man ...

And that no one had EVER thought of such a wonderous thing before in all the history of all the gods and godmen that had appeared in the imaginations of humans WAY before the Jesus character popped into the imaginations of a few folks in the Middle East ...

And the uterus of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Three centuries before Christ's birth, people celebrated 25 December, archaeologists claim https://www.independent.co.uk/news/scie ... 83910.html

And ...

3. The Church was slow to embrace Christmas

Despite the spread of Christianity, midwinter festivals did not become Christmas for hundreds of years. The Bible gives no reference to when Jesus was born, which wasn't a problem for early Christians, Nissenbaum said.

"It never occurred to them that they needed to celebrate his birthday," he said.

With no Biblical directive to do so and no mention in the Gospels of the correct date, it wasn't until the fourth century that church leaders in Rome embraced the holiday. At this time, Nissenbaum said, many people had turned to a belief the Church found heretical: That Jesus had never existed as a man, but as a sort of spiritual entity.

"If you want to show that Jesus was a real human being just like every other human being, not just somebody who appeared like a hologram, then what better way to think of him being born in a normal, humble human way than to celebrate his birth?" Nissenbaum said. [Religious Mysteries: 8 Alleged Relics of Jesus]

Midwinter festivals, with their pagan roots, were already widely celebrated, Nissenbaum said. And the date had a pleasing philosophical fit with festivals celebrating the lengthening days after the winter solstice (which fell on Dec. 21 this year). "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born … Christ should be born," one Cyprian text read. https://www.livescience.com/25779-chris ... anism.html

That was called "research".

Or should I simply accept what you say ...?

What is it that you ARE saying, by the way ...?

You only seem to be saying that everyone else has got it wrong ....

[1213]

...
Is stealing the birthdays of other supposed god-men part of the fraudulence …?

Why do you think it is not possible for “god-men� to be born at the same day?

Anyway, I think it would be good to remember this about Jesus:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

I think Jesus should not be mixed to “god-men� that don’t even have anything to say.

[Zzyzx]

.

I think Jesus should not be mixed to “god-men� that don’t even have anything to say.

Opinion noted.

Have you researched what hundreds of other 'god-men' have (or have not) had to say?

[1213]

...
Have you researched what hundreds of other 'god-men' have (or have not) had to say?

Not much. They don’t seem to want me to hear their message.

[Tart]

The Christian-Jewish propaganda does NOT say anything about celebrating the Divine Leader's birthday. We were only instructed to pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood, for example.

I propose that Christianity has been a fraud from the very start.

Is stealing the birthdays of other supposed god-men part of the fraudulence …?

I suppose this would rest in what we choose to believe and/or celebrate. What we would adopt to be "right" and "wrong"... What we adopt to give meaning to as a belief we adhere to. And why care for any belief we might have?

Perhaps there is things in the world, that are totally wrong, false, foolish, etc.. And perhaps there is things that are right, true, and wise...

Though i find myself having a hard time, or rather giving these things a hard criticism, of establishing between the two... Why care? Though it should be valid that there is truth, and there are false beliefs... Like a belief I will go back to yesterday, is totally a false belief. (i suppose)... Or the belief that it is right to do wrong... Surely it is wrong to eat babies. (I suppose)...

Though simply put... Personally, I like Christmas, and I'm not ashamed of Jesus Christ... Being ashamed of some kind of religion, philosophy, or truth, seems to be placing shame in a place of knowledge... Even is it is foolish (i suppose)... Was it wrong for the Greeks to believe in their Myths? Is it wrong to believe in something that is foolish? Depends on what we adopt to be a definition of "wrong" and of "foolish".. Surely all kinds of wonders, and the delight of the imagination, can be considered "foolish" (i suppose)... So is it wrong to delight in the imagination? Perhaps? Perhaps not?

Though if a foolish belief leads to a wrong... Perhaps then it is wrong to do so... Maybe an example, a belief that any sexual expression is ok, leading to rape... Is that wrong? If we adopt that as "wrong" it is, (though external law isnt anything we have the option to adopt, but rather internal law)...

Honestly, in summery... Even if the original post is true and valid (which i have serious doubts about), why care? Let Jesus birthday be on Christmas, and let Christmas be a day of giving... Why object? Perhaps "God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe" (1 Corinthians 1)

[marco]

Is stealing the birthdays of other supposed god-men part of the fraudulence …?

The idea is that the Devil should not have all the best tunes. Processions pull in crowds. If there's a nice story attached and a birthday celebration, all the better.

Yes Christmas is as artificial as many of the glittering trees that light dark December in modern times.

[marco]

...
Have you researched what hundreds of other 'god-men' have (or have not) had to say?

Not much. They don’t seem to want me to hear their message.

I think many hear what they want to hear. The good Christian feels special because they are the intelligent sheep that can tell Christ's whistle; the good Muslim male knows that if life is bad on Earth, it can only get better in the oasis of heaven; the good Jew is of course God's favourite. What more can a man ask? And the good atheist can expect only a coffin with satin lining. So much for Mithras and friends.

Meanwhile the clock is ticking away for all. Perhaps Horace was right in saying: carpe diem!

[SallyF]

Is stealing the birthdays of other supposed god-men part of the fraudulence …?

The idea is that the Devil should not have all the best tunes. Processions pull in crowds. If there's a nice story attached and a birthday celebration, all the better.

Yes Christmas is as artificial as many of the glittering trees that light dark December in modern times.

In the world of business start-ups - and religions are forms of commerce - there are basically two types:

The "new idea" and the "me too".

The Christian-Jewish personality cult/religion is a "me too".

It's as evidence-free as any other god-man belief system …

And just repackages the same old stuff in different wrapping.

Hamburgers were around LONG before McDonalds.

God-men were around LONG before Jesus.

[marco]

The "new idea" and the "me too".

The Christian-Jewish personality cult/religion is a "me too".

It's as evidence-free as any other god-man belief system …

And just repackages the same old stuff in different wrapping.

Hamburgers were around LONG before McDonalds.

God-men were around LONG before Jesus.

And Ecclesiastes tells us:9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new�?

Well, yes, there is. This may well be true of religions but blind nomads have nothing to teach us about the world beyond religious superstition.

The Elder Pliny put it differently: "Ex Africa semper aliquid novi" - there's always something new comes out of Africa. I suspect Yahweh and his brother Allah will continue to put up a fight against extinction, but if the dodo and the quagga could go....