Can we excuse Leviticus?

[marco]

Having watched a film, based on fact, where a young gay man was brutally beaten to death I turned to the enlightenment of Leviticus 20:13.


"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

This is apparently God speaking, the architect of universal harmony. Can this verse ever be justified? Apparently so. I learned that if the entire world resorted to homosexuality then Jesus would not have been able to come and redeem mankind. When Jesus did come, the law passed into disuse.

If the entire world had decided to be celibate, that too would have impeded Christ's arrival, so celibacy should also be an abomination. Maybe it is in some quarters though Paul didn't seem to think so.

Do we: Ignore Leviticus and any other bits of the Bible that seem brutal?
Do we say the old law is no longer needed?
Do we say that if a book inspires such hate, it is a bad book?

[JehovahsWitness]

No there is a bible command in the law of Moses for the Israelites to execute anyone found guilty of having sex with a member of the same sex.

Apparently JW's have been taught to pretend that the Bible doesn't say w hat it says.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with a male, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I fail to see anything in my statement which contradicts the above. As I said "a bible command in the law of Moses for the Israelites to execute anyone found guilty of having sex with a member of the same sex".

[marco]

At the time the law was in question was operative, yes absolutely.

An odd opinion. An act is good or bad depending on the day of the week or the year.

Do JW's support the death penalty for homosexuals?

Not at human hands, no. The above law was abolished and we are now under under Christian law, which still condems sexual contact out of marriage and homosexual acts but does not authorize execution of those that do such things. Christians are urged to leave the judgement as to who should live or die, in Gods hands.

I wonder who "urges" this? JWs "disfellowship" rather than leaving it up to God. I wonder why common sense is applied in some places and not in others.

Because as I said, we believe the law authorizing humans to execute those that practice homosexual acts was abolished at the death of Christ. Without such divine authorization, no human has the right to take the life of another person. The same principle covers military engagement.

Yes, we can tie ourselves in knots trying to make sense of the senseless. When people are attacked by a terrorist, whether God permits it or not, it is obviously correct to kill him.

As for Christ's death changing Scripture, Christ said: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."

When Jesus died "heaven and earth did not pass away", so we are still under Christ's strictures to obey every part of the old law.

[Divine Insight]

When Jesus died "heaven and earth did not pass away", so we are still under Christ's strictures to obey every part of the old law.

Exactly.

Not only this, but if JW wants to argue that Leviticus 20:13 isn't commending men to kill homosexuals, it still has God doing this dastardly deed. So this doesn't help much.

Plus the God of the OT did command men to stone adulterers to death. Jesus himself rebuked that one. So once again, we have people preferring Jesus over Yahweh because they clearly did not like what Yahweh had commended men to do.

So it still amounts to people who worship Jesus basically rejecting and refusing to do anything the original God commanded men to do.

In fact, any Christians who want to claim that Jesus' command override the OT should toss the OT out entirely. Why cling to the OT when it's something they can't even respect or defend?

The original God is basically despised by Christians. Take Jesus out of the picture and they want nothing to do with Yahweh.

[1213]

...
Do we: Ignore Leviticus and any other bits of the Bible that seem brutal?
Do we say the old law is no longer needed?
Do we say that if a book inspires such hate, it is a bad book?

I don’t know about you, but I think people should not ignore anything that is said in the Bible. And I would say the old Law that is from God, is still valid, things that were wrong then, are still wrong. I think the judgments in the Bible are not based on hate and telling for example that adultery is wrong, is not from hate.

[JehovahsWitness]

At the time the law was in question was operative, yes absolutely.

An odd opinion. An act is good or bad depending on the day of the week or the year.

I was not refering to the act, homosexuals acts were, are and always will be bad.

How and by what means God deems fit to punish said badness depends on the the time and circumstances. For the nation of Israel, which was a strict theocracy, death was to be immediate as administered by the nations judges. Christians were not living in an independent theocracy, they would be scattered amongst various nations and were not given authority to execute those that engage in them, leaving any evental need for execution in Gods hands.

I wonder who "urges" this?

We believe Almighty God does as communicated by his inspired word the bible.

JWs "disfellowship" rather than leaving it up to God..

When I said leave it up to God I was specifically referring to any eventual executions. This doesnt equate to tolerating such behaviours inside the Congregation. Anyone who unrepentently practised such things is, following the bible directive, to be put outside the Christian congregation. Which is what we do by disfellowshipping them.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HOMOSEXUALITY, HOMOPHOBIA and ...BIBLICAL PROHIBITIONS

[JehovahsWitness]

Not only this, but if JW wants to argue that Leviticus 20:13 isn't commending men to kill homosexuals, it still has God doing this dastardly deed.

What are you talking about? At what point did I suggest the law in question was not a command to execute those found guilty of homosexual acts?


JW

[Tcg]

Having watched a film, based on fact, where a young gay man was brutally beaten to death I turned to the enlightenment of Leviticus 20:13.


"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

And yet Jesus calls his followers sheep. Sheep, 8% of which are gay:

• The Development of Male-Oriented Behavior in Rams
  
  The sheep offers a unique mammalian model in which to study paradoxical same-sex sexual partner preferences. Variations in sexual partner preferences occur spontaneously with as many as 8% of rams in a population exhibiting a sexual preference for other rams (male-oriented). The current review presents an overview and update of the male-oriented ram model and discusses several theories that have been invoked to explain same sex preferences in this species. Although our understanding of the biological determinants and underlying neural substrates of sexual attraction and mate selection are far from complete, compelling evidence is discussed that supports the idea that neural substrates regulating sexual partner preferences are organized during prenatal development. The challenge for future research will be to construct an integrated picture of how hormones, genes, and experience shape sexual partner preference.
  
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3085551/

Apparently, Jesus' dad forgot his own rule when he invented sheep. We shouldn't be too surprised of course given that he also forgot his rule when he invented humans. His order to murder those who strayed from his rule was an apparent attempt to cover up his flawed design.


Tcg

[Divine Insight]

Not only this, but if JW wants to argue that Leviticus 20:13 isn't commending men to kill homosexuals, it still has God doing this dastardly deed.

What are you talking about? At what point did I suggest the law in question was not a command to execute those found guilty of homosexual acts?


JW

Well, if your God commanded men to kill homosexuals then why aren't you obeying your God?

I was not refering to the act, homosexuals acts were, are and always will be bad.

Is this your opinion? Or something something you were taught by this immoral religion?

The mere fact that you hold this position as if it represents some sort of absolute truth is disgusting.

This is what makes these religions so repulsive. They brainwash people to believe disgusting things.

[JehovahsWitness]

I was not refering to the act, homosexuals acts were, are and always will be bad.

Is this your opinion?

All my posts express my opinion. I believe, as I said on the outset, that God has the right to dictate what is good and bad, ie what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The bible is clear on the topic and as one of Jehovahs Witnesses I whole heartedly agree with it.



JW

[Tcg]

The bible is clear on the topic and as one of Jehovahs Witnesses I whole heartedly agree with it.

JW

The Bible is a book that is outdated and has been so for centuries. Using it to determine proper human behavior is flawed. It simply represents the prejudices and biases of humans who followed the superstitions of their day. Prejudices and biases that should be rejected today.


Tcg