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Jagella
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:10 pm  Goodbye for now! Reply with quote

I've decided to take a hiatus from this forum. I'm not sure if I'll be back or not. Several problems here have prompted my imminent departure.

The first problem is the poor quality of the discourse here especially on the part of the Christian members. I found myself spending a lot of time correcting both logical and factual errors on their part. But even after repeatedly correcting those errors, in many cases the errors continued.

Another problem involves the Christians' "disappearing acts." Rather than concede my points, they just leave the debate when they've realized they lost the debate.

Speaking of losing debates, at least one of the Christians here cried foul when she knew the Christians have repeatedly lost debates to me. She seems to think my winning debates makes me angry and hateful. I think it's ridiculous to whine that way. If you can't take having your beliefs critiqued, then it's really stupid to debate them.

But more than anything else, I think the mods here have a strong Christian bias and treat us critics of Christianity unfairly. I know I've been treated unfairly by the mods on many occasions. For example, very recently Elijah John moved a very good thread I started in the apologetics subforum to the Random Ramblings subforum. He moved it there because he knew that it was another disaster for Christian apologetics. He lied claiming there was no "room for debate."

Speaking of lying, the rule against accusing others of lying in this forum is ridiculous. The fact is that people often do lie and shouldn't be defended against being told that they've lied. I can understand why there would be such a rule in a Christian forum, though, because Christians very often lie to defend their beliefs.

And what really irked me was when I was accused of lying, and nothing was done about it! When I pointed out that the accusation was false (a lie in itself), the Christians who made that false accusation were let go.

When you know your position is weak, then slant the playing field in your favor.

But I've learned a lot here. I've learned that Christians cherish their comforting myths over everything else including people's welfare. They literally sacrifice children to abuse rather than concede the problems their beliefs can cause.

I can only hope that some day people wake up to this.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 11: Sat Oct 19, 2019 10:21 am
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Jagella wrote:

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Speaking of losing debates, at least one of the Christians here cried foul when she knew the Christians have repeatedly lost debates to me. She seems to think my winning debates makes me angry and hateful. I think it's ridiculous to whine that way. If you can't take having your beliefs critiqued, then it's really stupid to debate them.


I assume you're referring to me. I didn't cry foul because Christians were losing debates with you. In fact, I can't recall one single argument that a Christians has lost to you. I cried foul because I was tired of your tone which always comes across as rude, disrespectful, condescending and unpleasant. All I requested was some courtesy for others, not just me, but everybody who responds to you with counter-arguments. I don't think I was unreasonable in requesting that.

And quite frankly, if your "farewell" post here isn't an example of whining, I don't know what is!

As CalvinsBulldog put it, leaving a debate doesn't mean you have won. It means people are tired of your vitriol -- or they're just busy elsewhere. I returned to school and didn't have the time to spend here. I just finished a term yesterday. So I actually have a weekend off! So here I am, back for the first time since mid-August. But I don't promise to be around again when I start the next course. Life is so much more than engaging in discussions here. I wish you well in yours.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 12: Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:44 pm
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Re: Goodbye for now!

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otseng wrote:
The main goal of the forum is for civil debate. We can enforce civil debate, but we can't enforce everyone to be reasonable.


I prefer open debate that's designed to fairly and sensibly address the issue(s) raised. If I was concerned with people being nice to me, then I wouldn't tell them that they're wrong. We can be too "civil" in debates fearing to tell people the truth they hate to hear. I say let people get into the debate and "mix it up" saying what they need to say regardless of feelings. You know--George Carlin style.

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If you find someone is continually making logical errors, it's not your burden to try to continually correct them. You can just ignore them and debate with someone else.


I like to play the role of an educator. I've been busy preparing a math-tutoring website, for example. So I correct people when I can and accept corrections. I have trouble tolerating ignorance.

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This happens all the time from all sides.


I have noticed that when I make a "killer" point, my Christian interlocutors tend to run off. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

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We have 4 non-Christians on the mod team and they are some of the top debaters on the forum. There is no Christian bias from them. People might experience occasional bias from a Christian moderator (including myself), but as a whole, the mod team balances each other out and, in my opinion, it really cannot get more unbiased as a mod team.


Bias in ourselves tends to be something we are oblivious to. Many Christians, for example, tend to claim they are open-minded, yet their religion tells them that they are right, and all unbelievers are deceived by the Devil. Such beliefs are essentially guaranteed to create strong bias against unbelievers.

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As for fairness, I believe we've been more than fair with you. You've accumulated 6 warnings and we haven't issued you a final warning yet. If we were "fair" a banishment vote would've occurred a long time ago.


What did I do that you would "banish" me for? Is that your idea of fairness--not kicking somebody out of the forum?

I do know what I have done here. I've argued sensibly and truthfully to the best of my ability championing the cause of those who have been victimized by Christianity including children who have been sexually assaulted and even murdered.

Is that what could get me banned here? What case of my exposing Christian child abuse would get me kicked out?

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I don't really see it as a debate topic either since how do you really know what is going on inside another person's head.


You and Elijah John are very wrong about our inability to know what people think. We discern people's thoughts all the time by listening to what they say and watching what they do. I wanted to discuss the thoughts of apologists. You and Elijah John evidently cannot tolerate such exposure.

In any case, you both interfered with my effort to debate and discuss a very important and relevant issue in Christian apologetics. Elijah John's claims that my thread was somehow inappropriate are blatantly trumped-up charges. Contrary to what he claimed, my debate topic was very arguable. The real reason he moved it is because he knew full well that it was big trouble for apologetics and for apologists. He did not want the true motives of apologists to be exposed.

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If you answer your own debate question in the opening post, then it appears that you're not really interested in soliciting others for debate. Instead, simply answer your question in the second post.


I've answered my own question for debate many times in the OP, and there were no problems at all. I always showed acute interest in having other people join the debate, and nobody ever was put off by my answering my own question in the OP.

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This forum is not a place to simply present your views and then wait for others to react to it.


But that's how a debate works. Each interlocutor presents her arguments, and later her interlocutor responds.

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Leave it to the readers to make that judgement call, otherwise you are making a personal attack, even if you believe it is true.


Actually, being lied to is a personal attack, not truthfully pointing out that the liar is lying. The many times the Christians here lied to me they were personally attacking me--I wasn't attacking them for pointing out the fact that they lied.

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Would it be OK for a Christian to call you a sinner even though he believes it is true?


Absolutely! In fact, I've avowed here that I am a sinner, and I enjoy my sin. You can call me anything you wish.

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This forum, in my humble opinion, is one of the most level playing fields to debate religion. The forum has no bias towards any religious position.


In that case move my thread back to apologetics where it belongs.

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This might be true for some, but it's a false blanket statement to be applied to all Christians.


If you are an exception, then please speak out against the abuses I have exposed on this forum. You can start with faith healing and tell everybody what a scam it is.

In closing, I'd like to point out that I've always made an effort in this forum to sensibly and accurately convey the truth about the issues I've debated. I have especially tried to defend those who have been and are victimized by religion. If I've been censored or "warned," then I have been censored or warned for getting out the facts that if accepted, would force us to stop hurting innocent people.

You cannot morally or honestly fault me for that.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 13: Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:39 am
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Jagella wrote:

What did I do that you would "banish" me for?

OK, I can go over the warnings the mod team has given you...

Saying someone's post is retarded is uncivil.

Jagella wrote:

Sorry, Bust, but your posts are just getting too retarded to respond to.


Saying someone needs a brain transplant because you disagree with them is uncivil.

Jagella wrote:
If anybody believes this kind of nonsense, then they are in dire need of a brain transplant.


It is uncivil to imply another is lying.

Jagella wrote:

Either post your concession that the apologists' arguments in the OP are exactly what apologists argue, or admit that you are lying here.


This is needlessly personal and disrespectful to another.

Jagella wrote:

Did you see that? I answered your question. Now you know what an answer to a question looks like.


Accusing others of dishonesty is uncivil.

Jagella wrote:

So I think that Christian apologists are deliberately misleading people into believing that Isaiah 52:13-53:12 is a prophecy about Jesus, dishonesty that does not surprise me one bit.


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In closing, I'd like to point out that I've always made an effort in this forum to sensibly and accurately convey the truth about the issues I've debated. I have especially tried to defend those who have been and are victimized by religion. If I've been censored or "warned," then I have been censored or warned for getting out the facts that if accepted, would force us to stop hurting innocent people.

You are allowed to attack Christianity as hard as you want. There are no sacred cows that you cannot try to slaughter. However, you are not allowed to attack another poster, either directly or indirectly. If you attack ideas and arguments and do not attack people, then there's no need for any moderator to act on your posts.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 14: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:03 pm
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otseng wrote:
OK, I can go over the warnings the mod team has given you...


After fourteen years, this is the worst case you can make against me?

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Saying someone's post is retarded is uncivil.


Otseng, Bust Nak was advocating suicide. Are you aware of that? It seems awfully uncivil to me for him to do so. I haven't failed to notice that you have made this suicide-advocate a mod.

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Saying someone needs a brain transplant because you disagree with them is uncivil.


Jagella wrote:
If anybody believes this kind of nonsense, then they are in dire need of a brain transplant.


I don't recall the context in which I posted that witticism, but I can say that generally I have little patience with willful stupidity. Besides, you misquoted me. I didn't say that if I disagree with somebody, then they need a brain transplant. I said that believing nonsense requires them to need a brain transplant.

There's an easy way out of this dilemma: If anybody wants me to stop thinking they need a brain transplant, then all they need to do is stop believing nonsense!

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It is uncivil to imply another is lying.

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Jagella wrote:

Either post your concession that the apologists' arguments in the OP are exactly what apologists argue, or admit that you are lying here.


This is needlessly personal and disrespectful to another.


There is proof-positive on that thread that he was lying! I hate being lied to. And you don't understand that it's disrespectful for him to lie to me?

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Accusing others of dishonesty is uncivil.


It looks like we simply disagree. To you, I'm being disrespectful for truthfully pointing out that the other person is lying, yet you have no problem with their lying to me.

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If you attack ideas and arguments and do not attack people, then there's no need for any moderator to act on your posts.


Really? Then I'm not allowed to criticize the Inquisitors for torturing and burning people?

I think you're contradicting what you said earlier. When I said that Bust Nak's suicide advocacy was "retarded," you said that my comment was uncivil. Now you say I can attack "ideas and arguments."

So which one is it?

I'd recommend you rethink much of what you've posted here. It's contradictory, for one thing. But more than anything else, it fails to recognize how uncivil it is to lie to people and falsely accuses the person who is lied to as being uncivil for truthfully exposing the lie!

I have no time for a forum moderated this way. Clean up your act, Otseng, and I may return.

OK?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 15: Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:17 pm
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Jagella wrote:

I have no time for a forum moderated this way. Clean up your act, Otseng, and I may return.

OK?

Several have threatened before to leave the forum if the rules are not changed to adapt to their ways. No request to accept incivility has been granted and your request is no different. If you don't like the rules here and how it's enforced, you are free to create your own forum where you can control all the rules. Here, civility is strictly enforced and this will never be changed.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 16: Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:27 pm
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Overcomer wrote:
...I can't recall one single argument that a Christians has lost to you.


Maybe I didn't win those debates because you didn't participate in them.

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I cried foul because I was tired of your tone which always comes across as rude, disrespectful, condescending and unpleasant.


You're going to run into rude people online (and often offline too, of course). I know I've been treated rudely often enough and not just in this forum. If it gets to be too much, and the mods refuse to do anything about it, then I move on. That's why I've decided to leave this forum. I see no sense in staying and whining.

But I see that you're looking for respect and want to be treated pleasantly as well. I'd recommend that if you're not being treated the way you want, then it's not always helpful to point the finger of blame at the other person. It's entirely possible that you bring on the treatment you are receiving.

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All I requested was some courtesy for others, not just me, but everybody who responds to you with counter-arguments. I don't think I was unreasonable in requesting that.


It would be very helpful if you would post some examples in which you think I've been discourteous. If we look at the circumstances under which I may have been seemingly rude, then those circumstances may shed some light on why I said what I said.

So please don't make vague, blanket accusations alleging that I've been rude. The case you're making against me here would never stand up in court. You have no evidence!

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And quite frankly, if your "farewell" post here isn't an example of whining, I don't know what is!


If you look at the title of this part of the forum, it's "Comments, Suggestions, and Questions." That's what I'm doing: making comments, suggestions, and asking questions. If you don't like such "whining," then it seems odd to me that you read any of the posts here.

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As CalvinsBulldog put it, leaving a debate doesn't mean you have won. It means people are tired of your vitriol -- or they're just busy elsewhere. I returned to school and didn't have the time to spend here. I just finished a term yesterday. So I actually have a weekend off! So here I am, back for the first time since mid-August. But I don't promise to be around again when I start the next course. Life is so much more than engaging in discussions here. I wish you well in yours.


Well, maybe it's just a coincidence that when I make a killer point, then my Christian interlocutors disappear. They need to get back to school!

But here's some more "vitriol" for you: We atheists are winning the debate! Christianity is on the decline in developed countries. More than ever before, the word is getting out on how Christianity and other religions deceive and harm people, and I'm happy to see that so many people are wising up.

So frankly, I think you're just posting sour grapes here. You don't need to be a sore loser, though: come over to the winning side!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 17: Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:10 pm
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Re: Goodbye for now!

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[Replying to post 10 by CalvinsBulldog]

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The first problem is the poor quality of the discourse here especially on the part of the Christian members. I found myself spending a lot of time correcting both logical and factual errors on their part. But even after repeatedly correcting those errors, in many cases the errors continued.


The last time I debated with you was about a decade ago, and you basically made the same hostile assertions about Christians then.


If people make errors, then I point them out. I make a point of recognizing and correcting my own errors, so I'm fair. If you get very defensive when you are corrected, seeing the correction as hostility will only serve to make you likely to make the same error again!

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It's funny that what you perceive in your opponents is exactly my experience with discussion\debate with yourself.


It's very common for people to be biased seeing imperfections in others that they cannot see in themselves. To lessen such bias, the first step is to see that bias in ourselves.

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Another problem involves the Christians' "disappearing acts." Rather than concede my points, they just leave the debate when they've realized they lost the debate.


Only Christians do this?


I suppose people who are not Christians may turn their tails and run when they are getting whupped in a debate. Are you arguing that if non-Christians flee tough debates, then it is acceptable for Christians to do so?

Anyway, I just think it's honest and civil to concede defeat in a debate or at least concede good points.

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Could there be other possibilities than people leaving because you have bested them with your unassailable logic?


Well, Overcomer seems to think that people need to get back to school! LOL

The way I see it, many Christians are insecure about their beliefs, and they fear that if those beliefs are untrue, then they don't get to go to heaven. So anything that serves to cast doubt on those precious beliefs is perhaps painful and fearful for them. As a result, they may flee anything that shakes up those beliefs including a tough doubter's arguments.

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Speaking of lying, the rule against accusing others of lying in this forum is ridiculous. The fact is that people often do lie and shouldn't be defended against being told that they've lied. I can understand why there would be such a rule in a Christian forum, though, because Christians very often lie to defend their beliefs

Really, nothing has changed in a decade. I'm right back at home! You were making the same ad hominem character assasinations against theists rolled into the soft dough of begging the question fallacies back then, too.


I don't think you know what an ad hominem argument is. Simply criticizing people or accusing them of lying is not an ad hominem argument. An ad hominem argument is a type of red herring in that it is an irrelevant comment about a person that has nothing to do with the topic being debated. For example, if I tell you that you cannot be right about the existence of the Bible god because I think you are a bad person, then I'm making an ad hominem argument. On the other hand, if I criticize you for dishonesty, then I'm merely pointing out a fact, and no logical fallacy has been committed on my part.

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Target the behaviour, instead of targetting the people.


In that case you better not ever say anything bad about the mafia. Don't target them!

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The rule is based on a well-established principle that has been used for hundreds of years in any situation where debate occurs. For example, an accusation of lying is unparliamentary within the Westminster tradition. An accusation of lying must be withdrawn or the accuser gets kicked out of the chamber. Likewise in other debating forums. If you begin with the premise that everyone is dealing in good faith, it actually makes debate a lot smoother.


In a court of law, people are accused of lying all the time. That's how guilt can be established. The fact is that people do lie, and when they do lie, we need to expose those lies for what they are.

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Mind-reading is always a bad debate tactic.


No it isn't. If one's interlocutor is lying, then that deceit if exposed for what it is can win you the debate. After all, a debate's purpose should be to establish truth, and if your argument is based on lies, then you have no truth to defend.

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That's why we need a system of moderators. They provide a level of objective and impartial judgement which we can seldom provide when we are dealing with ourselves and inflamed emotions.


Actually, mods are no more just or honest than anybody else. Some of the worst trolls I've seen in online forums are the mods.

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Honestly, the day you stop generalising about people and viewing them in broadbrush terms, and start dealing with people as individuals is the day your debating experience will improve by orders of magnitude.


Why are so many Christians so sensitive to being "generalized"? Is it because you are well aware of what other Christians are doing and don't wish to be lumped in together with them?

But really, it's a lie to say I generalize Christians. In fact, one of my main criticisms of Christians is that they are so different and always fighting over their differences.

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How would you feel if I told you that I've found atheists to be dishonest and mendacious, as well as much less intelligent than they flatter themselves to be?


I might well agree with you! I have no problem seeing the imperfections in atheists.

Now--may I ask you to open your eyes about your fellow Christians and stop whining about anybody who speaks up and criticizes them?

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And how many people have you persuaded to your views in that time? I'm betting it comes to a round number - in fact, the roundest decimal digit that exists.


I don't know for sure how many people I may have convinced that Christianity is baloney, but I do know that Christianity is on the decline. So somebody is having an effect, and I LOVE it!

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