Moderator: Moderators
Questions for debate:Romans 14:8 (NWT) wrote:
For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah.
None of these scriptures are evidence that Jesus wouldn't use God's name.Difflugia wrote:I totally did. Let's recap.2timothy316 wrote:You have presented no scriptural evidence that Jesus wouldn't use his Father's name.
I marked several pericopers in which others object when Jesus ignores Jewish tradition, then Jesus makes a big deal about it:
Mk 7:1-8
Mk 3:1-6
Lk 13:10-17
That's thirty-eight scripture references where Jesus uses an epithet to refer to God versus zero references where he is recorded as using God's name. There are also zero references that suggest in some way a use of God's name even if God's name was later swapped for an epithet. Statistical analysis, even as simple as this, is generally considered to be reasonable as evidence, but I can't fail to notice that instead of actually rebutting it, you simply dismissed it out of hand.2timothy316 wrote:None of these scriptures are evidence that Jesus wouldn't use God's name.
The Dead Sea Scrolls contain several examples of prayers and hymns that use very similar language to this (I'm quoting from "The Thanksgiving Hymns" from The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English by Geza Vermes):2timothy316 wrote:Yet I have quoted a scripture that is evidence that Jesus did use God's name.
“I have made Your name known to them and will continue to make it known� (John 17:26) (BSV)
Which means Jesus has made both the actual name of God known and what it stands for. Not only that but that Jesus will continue to do so. He does so to this very day.
So, a group of Jewish contemporaries of Jesus used the same kind of language that Jesus did about God's name, but also observed a tradition of not saying it aloud. It's certainly possible that Jesus meant his words differently than the Qumran community did, but your single quote doesn't demonstrate that or even imply it. All you've proven is that Jesus used the same language to make the same kind of devotional statements about God as fellow Jews that had a tradition of not saying God's name.If any man has uttered the [Most] Venerable Name even though frivolously, or as a result of shock or for any other reason whatever, while reading the Book or blessing, he shall be dismissed and shall return to the Council of the Community no more.
I'd like to point out that I've actually rebutted your evidence by providing other, related evidence. Whether I've effectively done so is certainly up for further debate (or groundless dismissal again, I guess), but I haven't simply rejected what you've offered with no analysis.2timothy316 wrote:You MUST present something like this in order for me to reply. If you have no scripture and just more words of your own opinion then we are done here and as far as I'm concerned your debate material is empty.
That only holds if the New Testament authors were directly quoting from the Hebrew and not a Greek translation that replaced יהוה with Κ��ιός. Since we have very strong evidence that such translations existed, were contemporary with the writing of the New Testament, and match word-for-word most of the Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, there's a logical path for the loss of the Tetragrammaton in the Greek New Testament. You may have theological reasons for thinking that's not what happened, but that's pretty thin evidence for the implication that such a path is implausible.onewithhim wrote:Since God's name, as the Tetragrammaton [YHWH], appeared in the O.T. 7,000 times, everywhere that "LORD" appears (in all uppercase letters), when quoted by New Testament authors it is logical to think that they would write out the Tetragrammaton that they see in the verses they are quoting. Why would they substitute it with "Lord?"
Could it be the premise that the New Testament was inspired by God?onewithhim wrote:Since the N.T. was inspired by God, in addition to the Hebrew Scriptures, don't you think that the sudden disappearance of YHWH from the text would seem inconsistent? We've got 7,000 occurrences of God's name in the O.T. and then NONE in the N.T.?? Something doesn't add up here.
It's reasonable to assert that. You have done so, in fact. You haven't offered much supporting evidence to back up your assertion, though. At the least, it's also reasonable to assert that the references to the Divine Name may have only been contained in the writings of the minim and the Gospels were just guilty by association, as it were. Such would be entirely consistent with the quote you offered.onewithhim wrote:I find this little gem of a fact quite intriguing:
"The Tosefta, a written collection of oral laws that was completed c.300 A.D., says with regard to Christian writings that were burned on the Sabbath: 'The books of the Evangelists and the books of the minim [thought to be Jewish Christians] they do not save from a fire. But they are allowed to burn where they are, they and the references to the Divine Name which are in them.' This same source quotes Rabbi Yose the Galilean, who lived at the beginning of the 2nd century A.D., as saying that on other days of the week, 'one cuts out the references to the Divine Name which are in them [understood to refer to the Christian writings] and stores them away, and the rest burns.'"
Therefore, it is completely reasonable to assert that Christian writers of the N.T. books would also include the Divine Name in their writings.
Or at least of a single sect with more Jewish customs.onewithhim wrote:It seemed to be the habit of Christian writers overall.
In the book of Romans (ESV version) it appears 70 times.Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 65 by Difflugia]
How many times does Paul's "Christ" appear in the NT?
It would be interesting to compare, but I suspect that Paul's God for all practical purposes is "Christ", not Jehovah. For all practical purposes the NT writers saw no need to revere the name of God when they had a new name to revere, "Christ" as in "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain. "Christ" the name above all others in the New Testament, even above YHVH's own.
