Civil Debates on Christianity and Religions

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 1: Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:49 pm
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Some basic Catholic beliefs.

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These have been described as the basic beliefs of Catholics, although also true for some other Christian groups.

The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God.

However, the Bible contains numerous errors. Perhaps a most obvious one is the date of Jesus birth. Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod who died about 4 B.C. Luke claims that Jesus was born during the 6 AD Roman census of Judea.

Baptism, the rite of becoming a Christian, is necessary for salvation — whether the Baptism occurs by water, blood, or desire.

The necessity of Baptism claim had its origin with St. Augustine who used a Latin mistranslation of Paul’s “Romans.” This contained the infamous “in quo” which lead to the reasoning that everyone was born with the guilt of Adam’s “Original sin” and hence were damned to hell unless baptized.

• God’s Ten Commandments provide a moral compass — an ethical standard to live by.

One of any number of moral codes.

The existence of the Holy Trinity — one God in three persons.

Catholics embrace the belief that God, the one Supreme Being, is made up of three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity story (ie Three coequal persons in God) had to be developed to cope with the conflict with Jewish law “Hear O Israel, the Lord is one.”

Jesus began to be considered God in the early 80 AD’s by Christians leading to their be anathematized by Jews and excluded from the Jewish synagogues as apostates.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 2: Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:18 pm
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Re: Some basic Catholic beliefs.

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polonius wrote:

These have been described as the basic beliefs of Catholics, although also true for some other Christian groups.

The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God.

However, the Bible contains numerous errors. Perhaps a most obvious one is the date of Jesus birth. Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod who died about 4 B.C. Luke claims that Jesus was born during the 6 AD Roman census of Judea.

Baptism, the rite of becoming a Christian, is necessary for salvation — whether the Baptism occurs by water, blood, or desire.

The necessity of Baptism claim had its origin with St. Augustine who used a Latin mistranslation of Paul’s “Romans.” This contained the infamous “in quo” which lead to the reasoning that everyone was born with the guilt of Adam’s “Original sin” and hence were damned to hell unless baptized.

• God’s Ten Commandments provide a moral compass — an ethical standard to live by.

One of any number of moral codes.

The existence of the Holy Trinity — one God in three persons.

Catholics embrace the belief that God, the one Supreme Being, is made up of three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity story (ie Three coequal persons in God) had to be developed to cope with the conflict with Jewish law “Hear O Israel, the Lord is one.”

Jesus began to be considered God in the early 80 AD’s by Christians leading to their be anathematized by Jews and excluded from the Jewish synagogues as apostates.

Yes, I think most of us know these things. However....
1) Their official position might be that the Bible is without error and inspired by God, but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture, and if there is any conflict between the Church and Scripture, the Church wins out.

2) What is being baptized by "desire?" Anyway, it's not baptism that saves you. It's what God sees in your heart. St. Augustine wasn't very bright. How could a baby deliberately do something bad? Ridiculous. He was correct about all mankind being "born in sin," but a baby doesn't know anything about what's going on, or what God expects from him. The baby won't be destroyed. It's foolish to entertain any thoughts like that. I kind of think Augustine's idea was one to fill the Church's coffers.

3) The Trinity isn't so "Holy." You bring up some good points about it. There are many other facts about it that can blow it out of the water.



Tongue

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 3: Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:03 pm
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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 4: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:40 am
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Are these four belief really believed by Catholicc.

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The moderator sent a message that this topic needs a question which I'm not sure was directed to me on the post in which it appears.

But I agree I didn't really ask a real question.

So now I have.


Last edited by polonius on Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 5: Tue Jan 14, 2020 9:43 am
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Onewithhim claims that:

(Quote) .... but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture. (Quote)

I don't believe the Vatican ever made that claim. Please cite your source.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 6: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:30 am
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Do some Catholic still believe in Papal infallibility?

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“The teaching of Pope Leo XIII on the infallibility of Sacred Scripture is itself an infallible teaching under the doctrine of papal infallibility, which was taught explicitly by the First Vatican Council prior to the publication of Providentissimus Deus.”

Thus Catholics had to believe Matthew’s gospel that Jesus was born during the lifetime of King Herod who died in 4 B.C. And a Jesus was born again , according to Luke, during the 6 A.D. Roman census of Judea, thus 10 years later. Logically, then Mary had two son’s named Jesus.

However, it appears that some changes have crept into belief in Catholic scriptural inerrancy.

From Religious Tolerance:
No inerrancy: Still other Catholic theologians and scholars have deviated entirely from the church's official teaching. They agree with liberal Protestants in rejecting the inerrancy of the Bible. They interpret it as containing much legend, myth, historical and scientific inaccuracies, religious propaganda, etc. Of these intellectuals, Dominic Crossan is one of the most popular Catholic writers among the general public.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 7: Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:54 am
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polonius wrote:
Onewithhim claims that:

(Quote) .... but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture. (Quote)

I don't believe the Vatican ever made that claim. Please cite your source.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is considered an authoritative source for Catholic doctrine.

Paragraph 113, discussing principles for the interpretation of Scripture:
Quote:
2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church.” According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church”).

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 8: Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:03 pm
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Was Jesus really born twice (compare Matthew and Luke)?

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Difflugia wrote:

polonius wrote:
Onewithhim claims that:

(Quote) .... but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture. (Quote)

I don't believe the Vatican ever made that claim. Please cite your source.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is considered an authoritative source for Catholic doctrine.

Paragraph 113, discussing principles for the interpretation of Scripture:
Quote:
2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church.” According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church”).


RESPONSE: So you are saying that Christ was born twice ten years apart (compare Matthew's and Luke's first three chapters) is a true teaching because it is a "tradition"???

And you believe that Jesus rode two animals simultaneously when entering Jerusalem as Matthew tells us because it is a tradition? And we have to believe Mary had a virgin birth (actually two of them) because of a tradition?

And please provide your citation for "According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, or like the second birth of Christ (compare Matthew and Luke) or was this just a saying made up by a religion teacher??

It is better to believe facts rather than "traditions" In the case of tradition, we would have to believe something is true because it was so frequently said, right?

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 9: Tue Jan 14, 2020 4:21 pm
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Re: Was Jesus really born twice (compare Matthew and Luke)?

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polonius wrote:

RESPONSE: So you are saying that Christ was born twice ten years apart (compare Matthew's and Luke's first three chapters) is a true teaching because it is a "tradition"???

And you believe that Jesus rode two animals simultaneously when entering Jerusalem as Matthew tells us because it is a tradition? And we have to believe Mary had a virgin birth (actually two of them) because of a tradition?

And please provide your citation for "According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, or like the second birth of Christ (compare Matthew and Luke) or was this just a saying made up by a religion teacher??

It is better to believe facts rather than "traditions" In the case of tradition, we would have to believe something is true because it was so frequently said, right?

I'm not entirely sure what you think we're arguing about. You asked for a source that the Vatican claimed that tradition overrides Scripture. Without claiming that I believed any of it, I provided you with a quote from the Catechism and gave you a link to look it up yourself if you want to.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 10: Tue Jan 14, 2020 7:52 pm
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Do you beleve everything someone tells you?

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Diflugia posted:

(Quote)The Catechism of the Catholic Church is considered an authoritative source for Catholic doctrine. (Quote)

Question: By who? The Catholic Church? Do you believe them?

Sorry. But you walked right into that one. Wink

Perhaps you should follow the advice of Good Apostle Paul.

"Test everything. Then put away childish things."

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