Some basic Catholic beliefs.

[polonius]

These have been described as the basic beliefs of Catholics, although also true for some other Christian groups.

• The Bible is the inspired, error-free, and revealed word of God.

However, the Bible contains numerous errors. Perhaps a most obvious one is the date of Jesus birth. Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of King Herod who died about 4 B.C. Luke claims that Jesus was born during the 6 AD Roman census of Judea.

• Baptism, the rite of becoming a Christian, is necessary for salvation — whether the Baptism occurs by water, blood, or desire.

The necessity of Baptism claim had its origin with St. Augustine who used a Latin mistranslation of Paul’s “Romans.� This contained the infamous “in quo� which lead to the reasoning that everyone was born with the guilt of Adam’s “Original sin� and hence were damned to hell unless baptized.

• God’s Ten Commandments provide a moral compass — an ethical standard to live by.

One of any number of moral codes.

• The existence of the Holy Trinity — one God in three persons.

Catholics embrace the belief that God, the one Supreme Being, is made up of three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity story (ie Three coequal persons in God) had to be developed to cope with the conflict with Jewish law “Hear O Israel, the Lord is one.�

Jesus began to be considered God in the early 80 AD’s by Christians leading to their be anathematized by Jews and excluded from the Jewish synagogues as apostates.

[Difflugia]

Question: By who? The Catholic Church? Do you believe them?

About what their official doctrine is? Implicitly.

[onewithhim]

Onewithhim claims that:

(Quote) .... but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture. (Quote)

I don't believe the Vatican ever made that claim. Please cite your source.

I can't remember where I read this. But I can tell you that I have spoken to several Catholics who say that "sola scriptura" is nonsense. The Church's traditions are the most important. So if you don't accept that, I guess we have to say they were lying?

[onewithhim]

Question: By who? The Catholic Church? Do you believe them?

About what their official doctrine is? Implicitly.

Why? Have you never wondered how Jehovah, Jesus, and Jehovah's Holy Spirit could all be equal and yet there are some things that only the Father knows and the Son does not? That doesn't cause you to stop and wonder about it for a second?

Matthew 24:36

[polonius]

Onewithhim claims that:

(Quote) .... but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture. (Quote)

I don't believe the Vatican ever made that claim. Please cite your source.

I can't remember where I read this. But I can tell you that I have spoken to several Catholics who say that "sola scriptura" is nonsense. The Church's traditions are the most important. So if you don't accept that, I guess we have to say they were lying?

RESPONSE:


No. They were mistaken, not lying. There's a big difference.

[Difflugia]

Why? Have you never wondered how Jehovah, Jesus, and Jehovah's Holy Spirit could all be equal and yet there are some things that only the Father knows and the Son does not? That doesn't cause you to stop and wonder about it for a second?

I only said that I trust the Catholic church to know what Catholic doctrine is. I would say exactly the same thing about the Watch Tower society; I completely trust them to know the official doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses.

At no point did I say that I believe those doctrines themselves. I think they're both full of beans.

[onewithhim]

Onewithhim claims that:

(Quote) .... but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture. (Quote)

I don't believe the Vatican ever made that claim. Please cite your source.

I can't remember where I read this. But I can tell you that I have spoken to several Catholics who say that "sola scriptura" is nonsense. The Church's traditions are the most important. So if you don't accept that, I guess we have to say they were lying?

RESPONSE:


No. They were mistaken, not lying. There's a big difference.

I thought Diffugia posted something that showed that what I said was a fact.




.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 15 by Difflugia]

OK. Gotcha.

[polonius]

Onewithhim claims that:

(Quote) .... but in practice the Vatican says that tradition trumps Scripture. (Quote)

I don't believe the Vatican ever made that claim. Please cite your source.

I can't remember where I read this. But I can tell you that I have spoken to several Catholics who say that "sola scriptura" is nonsense. The Church's traditions are the most important. So if you don't accept that, I guess we have to say they were lying?

RESPONSE:


No. They were mistaken, not lying. There's a big difference.

I thought Diffugia posted something that showed that what I said was a fact.




.

RESPONSE: What did he post that you thought was a fact?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 18 by polonius]

I guess you missed posts #7 and #9.

[polonius]

Difflugia posted:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is considered an authoritative source for Catholic doctrine.

Paragraph 113, discussing principles for the interpretation of Scripture:

Quote:
2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church.� According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (“according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church�).

I'm not entirely sure what you think we're arguing about. You asked for a source that the Vatican claimed that tradition overrides Scripture. Without claiming that I believed any of it, I provided you with a quote from the Catechism and gave you a link to look it up yourself if you want to.


RESPONSE: Thank you for correcting my views. Since “inerrant� scripture contains so many errors, perhaps the Church is wise to switch it’s belief to “the living tradition of the whole church� (or not)so it can change it when necessary in an attempt to explain away errors such as the birth of Jesus both during the lifetime of King Herod who died before 4 BC (Matthew) and again during the 6 AD census. Also the error in Matthew that Jesus sent for and rode two animal when entering Judea. Etc.

And did you know that until quite recently the “living tradition� of the Church contained the teaching about Limbo (for children who died without being baptized)? Pope Benedict admitted the it really was never in scripture)

Here’s another “living tradition� of the Catholic Church. If one is Catholic, does one have to believe it?

We say, pronounce, sentence, and declare that you, the said Galileo, by reason of the matters adduced in trial, and by you confessed as above, have rendered yourself in the judgment of this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, namely, of having believed and held the doctrine—which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures—that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west and that the Earth moves and is not the center of the world; and that an opinion may be held and defended as probably after it has been declared and defined to be contrary to the Holy Scripture;


If one is Catholic, does one have to believe it?


So much for the “living Church traditions"