Believe to be saved???? Said who?

[Avoice]

The Christian Testament says one must believe in Jesus to be saved. If you don't believe you will go to hell. Is this true? How can we know? Is any other question more important than this? So where do we go for the answer?

ALL Christians believe the Hebrew Scriptures are the word of God. Needless to say, so do all Jews. It is the Christian Testament that bears the burden of Truth. Neither Jew nor Christiansl can disagree with the following postulate:

The Hebrew Scriptures can not be wrong and the Christian Testament be right That is impossible. However it IS possible for the Christian Testament to be false and the Hebrew Scriptures be right. The Christian bible MUST be upheld by the Hebrew Scriptures. There is no way around it.

So is it true? We must believe in the Messiah to be saved? Where do we go for that abswer? To the Hebrew Scriptures of course. The very book that Christians learned of the Messiah.

In the entire corpus of the Hebrew Scriptures NO WHERE does it say that when the Messiah comes we must believe in him to be saved. And if we dont we will go to hell. NOTHING EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO THAT.. Not only that but the passages in the Hebrew Bible that the church claims is about Jesus says nothing about how we MUST believe in him to be saved.

If mans salvation--- our whole existance boils down to making sure that we believe in the Messiah to be saved then why did none of the prophets mention this? God never mentioned it either. Without that key piece of knowledge the entire Hebrew Bible might as well be tossed in the trash. And if its in the trash then Christianity dies along with it.

The truth is this: no one will need to believe IN the Messiah when he comes. We will KNOW he is the Messiah by his works. Believe to be saved? God never said that. No where ever did he say that. This is what false religions do. They threaten death to those who don't believe their leaders. God doesnt even demand we believe in him. No where does he say believe in me to be saved and if you don't youll go to hell.

There is only one reason Christians say they must believe to be saved. Its nit because Gid told them that. They were threatened. Why are they so scared of what men say? Who they should fear they ignore. WANT TRUTH? Listen to God. Why is that so difficult?

[Divine Insight]

The Christian Testament says one must believe in Jesus to be saved. If you don't believe you will go to hell. Is this true? How can we know? Is any other question more important than this? So where do we go for the answer?

The answer is simple.

Yes, there is another question that is far more important than this one.

Why should anyone believe that some God is out to condemn them to hell in the first place?

That's a far more important question.

Have you done anything that is deserving of eternal punishment in Hell? If so, then I suppose you have good reason for believing that some God is out to condemn you to Hell.

But for decent people to believe that some God is out to condemn them to eternal suffering for no good reason makes no sense. They would need to believe in monster God who condemns people for petty reasons at best. Certainly not a God they could trust or love.

So the real question isn't how can we be saved. But rather the real question is why we should think we have been condemned in the first place?

[1213]

The Christian Testament says one must believe in Jesus to be saved. If you don't believe you will go to hell. Is this true?

New Testament says, person who is unrighteous, will die and righteous will get eternal life. I think the same idea is also in Old testament.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

If you are unrighteous sinner, then you have judgment waiting, unless you accept the forgiveness Jesus is offering. If you don’t accept it, you are not judged because of disbelief, but because of the sin you have, and you don’t get eternal life, because you are not righteous.

One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
John 3:36

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

So, if you go to hell, it is because you are not righteous. And if you are righteous, it will show in your actions.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

A righteous man hates lies…
Pro. 13:5

[Divine Insight]

The Christian Testament says one must believe in Jesus to be saved. If you don't believe you will go to hell. Is this true?

New Testament says, person who is unrighteous, will die and righteous will get eternal life. I think the same idea is also in Old testament.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

If you are unrighteous sinner, then you have judgment waiting, unless you accept the forgiveness Jesus is offering. If you don’t accept it, you are not judged because of disbelief, but because of the sin you have, and you don’t get eternal life, because you are not righteous.

One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won't see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
John 3:36

If anyone listens to my sayings, and doesn't believe, I don't judge him. For I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects me, and doesn't receive my sayings, has one who judges him. The word that I spoke, the same will judge him in the last day.
John 12:47-48

This is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the light, and doesn't come to the light, lest his works would be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God."
John 3:19-21

So, if you go to hell, it is because you are not righteous. And if you are righteous, it will show in your actions.

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

A righteous man hates lies…
Pro. 13:5

Based on your arguments here then your own righteousness is what saves you, not Jesus.

If that's the case then belief in Jesus or Yahweh is totally irrelevant. You don't need to believe in either one of those things to be a righteous person.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Avoice]

The closest thing would be "Abram put his faith in Yahweh and this was reckoned to him as uprightness" Genesis 15.6 New Jerusalem Bible.

But it is important to note that righteousness was imputed by believing in Yahweh, not in the Messiah. The two were not one in the same. The Messiah was never supposed to have been considered God incarnate.

[Divine Insight]

But it is important to note that righteousness was imputed by believing in Yahweh

That should raise huge red flags for you right there. Why should righteousness be dependent on believing in a specific God? This brings the validity of the entire theology into question.

[Elijah John]

But it is important to note that righteousness was imputed by believing in Yahweh

That should raise huge red flags for you right there. Why should righteousness be dependent on believing in a specific God? This brings the validity of the entire theology into question.

Believing in, as in trusting in. Not simply believing in that He exists. According to James, "even the devils believe, and tremble" James was saying that faith without works of righteousness is dead.

And yes, it is important to believe in the right God. The Living God. The others are non-existent or are idols. Life, and eternal life comes from the Living God.

if you want to argue that YHVH is not the Living God (read "real") then that is another topic.

[Divine Insight]

And yes, it is important to believe in the right God. The Living God.

That's the only God anyone can believe in. There can be no such thing as false Gods.

This is yet another huge red flag that reveals the fallacy of this deeply cultural religion. They are just trying to lay claim to the patent rights on God by proclaiming that only their God is "The Living God".

How can you not see through that?

You'd need to believe that God himself is a complete moron. Why would you accept that idea?

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 1 by Avoice]

I find the whole idea of using faith to avoid Hell somewhat curious. It requires faith to believe in Hell in the first place. Why anyone would want to believe in Hell is beyond me.

I’m not a believer, and even I have more faith in God than to imagine that he would orchestrate or even permit the existence of Hell.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 1 by Avoice]

I find the whole idea of using faith to avoid Hell somewhat curious. It requires faith to believe in Hell in the first place. Why anyone would want to believe in Hell is beyond me.

I’m not a believer, and even I have more faith in God than to imagine that he would orchestrate or even permit the existence of Hell.

Exactly.

I'd need to have an extremely low opinion of God in order to believe in the Abrahamic religions.

Their God apparently thrives on wrath more than anything else.

He's supposed to be the designer of all that exists, and the best he could do is create a world filled with humans that MAJORITY of which he casts into eternal damnation as punishment for not having turned out as he had hoped?

What a horrible designer he would be! He's going to create flawed humans and then blame them for his designing ineptitude?

In order to believe in this religion we must first place our faith in the idea that we were all created by a raving lunatic who can't even do anything right.

Why in the world anyone would want to place their faith in this religion is beyond me.

And even if they can't see why this creator God would need to be a completely inept and wrathful creator, then they would need to place their faith in the idea that the DESERVE to be thrown into a state of eternal hell.

And they want to place their faith in that idea?

Nope. I can't see any reason why anyone would want to place their faith in this religion. The only people who should believe in this religion are people who have been convinced that they have absolutely no choice in the matter. And even then they still need to believe that either their creator is totally inept and incapable of creating decent humans, or they need to believe that they deserve to be tortured for eternity in hell.

As far as I can see it's utterly absurd to ask anyone to believe in this religion as a matter of faith. No sane person should want it to be true.

The only hope for this religion is to convince people that they have no choice but to believe that God is either an inept raging lunatic , or they deserve to be tortured for eternity.

No one is going to convince me of either or those two things. They are both utterly absurd and without merit. I know I don't deserve to be tortured for eternity. Thus leaving me with the only other choice available in this religion. The God is a totally deranged and dangerous lunatic. And that's certainly not an idea I'd want to embrace on faith.