Did Christ crave worship?

[marco]

Jesus comes to us beautifully gift wrapped, especially at Christmas. His biographers have written wonderful eulogies to the extent that many think he had to be a god.


He told his friends not to say anything about his miracles or his identity. (Matthew 8, Matthew9 and Matthew 16) But of course his purpose was to display his divine gift so he wanted publicity.

When he asked: "What are people saying about me?" was he just seeking flattery?

And when he demanded that people love him more than their own children was he encouraging idolatry, like pop stars today?


Did Jesus crave worship?

[1213]

Any good dictionary will tell you what "hate" means.

And what I get is, it means “intense dislike�. I have no problem with that meaning.

I think that is Argumentum ad preferentiam.

I have never seen the noun "preferentia" used in Latin, though I agree that after the preposition "ad" one would use preferentiam. Have you any idea what the phrase means? [/quote]

Interesting, I thought it was common expression. but apparently not. What I meant, your personal opinion is not also the “normal interpretation�.

I am guessing that you cannot defend Christ in this instance. Nor can I.

Defend Christ from your opinion? I don’t think Jesus is selfish, and I don’t think you have any good argument for that he is. So, there is actually no reason to defend, when you have no real attack going on, only your opinion that I think is not reasonable.

[marco]

Any good dictionary will tell you what "hate" means.

And what I get is, it means “intense dislike�. I have no problem with that meaning.

Christ said faith can move mountains which means faith can do anything. It can turn repugnant expressions such a "hate you children" into expressions of love. I don't know why he would choose this ugly format of words but the suggestion is on a par with God asking Abraham to kill his son.

Interesting, I thought it was common expression. but apparently not. What I meant, your personal opinion is not also the “normal interpretation�.

If I recall correctly you do not go in for interpretations; you simply accept what is said. If you take "hate your children" as it is said, without looking for some profound other meaning then you must regard the words as nasty. There's nothing to interpret.

Defend Christ from your opinion? I don’t think Jesus is selfish, and I don’t think you have any good argument for that he is. So, there is actually no reason to defend, when you have no real attack going on, only your opinion that I think is not reasonable.

My opinion is of no account: the words are what is important.

Christ: Hate your parents; hate your children. Then you can come with me.

Forget my opinion and explain how anyone can accept these words as good. The problem with holding up Christ as the source of love and truth is that at times this belief will lead a person into wickedness. It was utter belief in Christ that caused people to burn heretics. The above words are wicked: to think otherwise is to defend wickedness.

[1213]

…Christ said faith can move mountains which means faith can do anything. It can turn repugnant expressions such a "hate you children" into expressions of love. I don't know why he would choose this ugly format of words but the suggestion is on a par with God asking Abraham to kill his son.

I don’t see why you think word “hate� is ugly. You seem to give to it some extra meaning that I don’t know.

…If I recall correctly you do not go in for interpretations; you simply accept what is said. If you take "hate your children" as it is said, without looking for some profound other meaning then you must regard the words as nasty. There's nothing to interpret.

Nothing to interpret, but obviously we need to know what is the meaning of the words. In this case the word “hate� means commonly, by what I know, intense dislike. And I don’t see why it is nasty. But, it is possible that we have wrong idea of what Jesus meant with the word “hate�. To understand what Jesus meant, I think the context and other his sayings are useful. And in this case the main subject is, how can person go and follow Jesus. If one likes more something else, he doesn’t go and that's it, I think there is no need to be ultra-emotional with this matter. Especially because it doesn’t mean that we should not love others. The law is that we should love even your enemies.

…Forget my opinion and explain how anyone can accept these words as good. The problem with holding up Christ as the source of love and truth is that at times this belief will lead a person into wickedness. It was utter belief in Christ that caused people to burn heretics. The above words are wicked: to think otherwise is to defend wickedness.

I think no one, who is faithful to Jesus, burns or kills like that, because Jesus has said:

"Don't judge, so that you won't be judged. For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you."
Mat. 7:1-2

Be careful. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in the day, and seven times returns, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him."
Luke 17:3-4

Only people who don’t know or understand what the Bible tells, could go blatantly against what Jesus says.

[marco]

I don’t see why you think word “hate� is ugly. You seem to give to it some extra meaning that I don’t know.

No, we both know the meaning. We have a different view of what is good and what is bad. I think telling someone to hate his children is bad. There are no possible arguments that make this good.

Nothing to interpret, but obviously we need to know what is the meaning of the words. In this case the word “hate� means commonly, by what I know, intense dislike. And I don’t see why it is nasty. But, it is possible that we have wrong idea of what Jesus meant with the word “hate�. To understand what Jesus meant, I think the context and other his sayings are useful. And in this case the main subject is, how can person go and follow Jesus. If one likes more something else, he doesn’t go and that's it, I think there is no need to be ultra-emotional with this matter. Especially because it doesn’t mean that we should not love others. The law is that we should love even your enemies.

The above is confused. You start with the correct definition of hate and so the sentence: "You must hate your children" is very clear. You then alter the meaning of hate so that the instruction is now, "You must continue to love your children but you must love me more so that you choose me instead of them. That is the interpretation you at first rejected. It is not what Christ said.

You are trying to make sense of the senseless, make good of the wicked. I know it was Christ who said it - Christ the good man - but in this instance Christ was being bad. He was after all only a man and occasionally fell into error, as such. Here he was so carried away with his exaggerated view of himself that he expected people to hate their families and choose him. This was despicable.

You can quote Christ advocating good but he also advocated bad. Sometimes love makes us blind and adoration of Christ can blind us to some bad things he said.

[1213]

No, we both know the meaning. We have a different view of what is good and what is bad. I think telling someone to hate his children is bad.

Please explain why you think it is bad?

The above is confused. You start with the correct definition of hate and so the sentence: "You must hate your children" is very clear. You then alter the meaning of hate so that the instruction is now, "You must continue to love your children but you must love me more so that you choose me instead of them. That is the interpretation you at first rejected. It is not what Christ said…

In Bible love and hate are not opposites.

[marco]

No, we both know the meaning. We have a different view of what is good and what is bad. I think telling someone to hate his children is bad.

Please explain why you think it is bad?

I shouldn't need to. In English the instruction "Hate your children" is bad. I have no idea what possible syntactical problems there might be in understanding this instruction.

In Bible love and hate are not opposites.

We are reading neither Greek nor Aramaic, but an English sentence whose meaning I know. In English love is an antonym of hate. In any other language I know love and hate are contrary. I have no idea how you conclude that biblically hate is not the opposite of love.

[1213]

… In English love is an antonym of hate. In any other language I know love and hate are contrary. I have no idea how you conclude that biblically hate is not the opposite of love.

If you read how Bible uses for example the word love, it means that one cares, doesn’t do anything evil to others.

Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not give false testimony," "You shall not covet," [TR adds "You shall not give false testimony,"] and whatever other commandments there are, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love doesn't harm a neighbor. Love therefore is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10

Even enemies should be loved, according to the Bible:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

It doesn’t mean you have to like evil, it means you don’t do anything wrong, not even to evil people.

And when we read the “hate your life� part, it means in practice that person rejects own life and goes and follows Jesus. Not all people had to do so, but those who did, had to reject their former life, because otherwise they could not have go and follow Jesus.

[marco]

If you read how Bible uses for example the word love...…

We are discussing the word "hate". I'm aware of the contexts in which Jesus asks us to love.

It doesn’t mean you have to like evil, it means you don’t do anything wrong, not even to evil people.

That's very nice. Does this have a bearing on: "Hate your children"?

And when we read the “hate your life� part,

Yes, in this statement we can understand that we should put ourselves in second place. I haven't disputed this. We are dealing with the statement: "Hate your parents, hate your children." This is something you have completely ignored. If you have no good explanation say so.

[1213]

… We are dealing with the statement: "Hate your parents, hate your children." This is something you have completely ignored. ...

Sorry, I think I have not ignored it. But, if you think it is wrong, please explain why do you think it is wrong? What do you think it means in practice? If you can’t explain, why should we think it is something wrong and bad?

[marco]

… We are dealing with the statement: "Hate your parents, hate your children." This is something you have completely ignored. ...

Sorry, I think I have not ignored it. But, if you think it is wrong, please explain why do you think it is wrong? What do you think it means in practice? If you can’t explain, why should we think it is something wrong and bad?

I am going to assume that somehow the English words, rendered into Finnish, lose most of their meaning. That you should ask me what is wrong with the advice: "Hate your children" is a puzzle I cannot resolve.

If somebody has just beheaded a child, let us say, would anyone want to ask what was wrong with that act?

If someone knocks on your door and tells you to hate your parents and your children and then hang around with them, can you not detect just a shadow of nastiness in that demand?

That Jesus is the person making the demand does not change a thing about what is demanded. Once can have fanciful ideas about Jesus or Yahweh but BAD remains BAD.


Anyway since you keep asking what's wrong with hating your children I don't see me making much progress. Your views have reassured me that I made the right decision in moving from Christ's flock of sheep. He's not a good shepherd if he requires hatred, no matter how many times he used the word love.