Christians Whom Christians Deny Were (Are) Christians

[Jagella]

I've been falsely accused many times of "generalizing" Christians. The truth of the matter is that I see Christians as very different often contradicting each other and fighting over "what God wants." In any event, it's not hard to see why so many Christians hate to be lumped in with other Christians. Many professing Christians have done some terrible things.

Question for Debate: Can you name a Christian whom you think most Christians might deny was a Christian?

Here's a list we might start out with:

• † Tomás de Torquemada
  † Constantine
  † Vlad the Impaler
  † Jimmy Swaggart
  † Jim Jones
  † David Koresh
  † Donald Trump

[Menotu]

I've been falsely accused many times of "generalizing" Christians. The truth of the matter is that I see Christians as very different often contradicting each other and fighting over "what God wants." In any event, it's not hard to see why so many Christians hate to be lumped in with other Christians. Many professing Christians have done some terrible things.

Question for Debate: Can you name a Christian whom you think most Christians might deny was a Christian?

Here's a list we might start out with:

• † Tomás de Torquemada
  † Constantine
  † Vlad the Impaler
  † Jimmy Swaggart
  † Jim Jones
  † David Koresh
  † Donald Trump

I would say the last two definitely (though, maybe not so oddly enough, many Christians support Trump, which is odd to me but whatever...)
As far as well known, famous people I can't think of any more than the list provided. I can think of several personally but they won't mean anything to people here.
I wonder if the famous ones are more important to know than the normal, everyday types?

[Jagella]

I would say the last two definitely (though, maybe not so oddly enough, many Christians support Trump, which is odd to me but whatever...)

My Christian sister who at least used to be very racist, ableist, and homophobic, is a big supporter of Trump. I remember she used to mock the disabled and gays, and one of her favorite words was the "n-word." She used to do all of this after studying her Bible. Maybe it's just a coincidence that she's a Trump enthusiast.

I can think of several personally but they won't mean anything to people here.

I know a Christian named "Sean" who curses, lies like a rug, watches porn, and loves to describe people as being the "a-word." Sean and I both know a man named "Kurt" whom Sean says is not a true Christian. I must wonder what Kurt must be doing if it's even more "un-Christian" than what Sean does!

I wonder if the famous ones are more important to know than the normal, everyday types?

I think it's best to know any Christian, famous or obscure. That way we can judge their beliefs by judging them. After all, a perfect God won't inspire people to do evil, now would she?

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 3 by Jagella]

My Christian sister who at least used to be very racist, ableist, and homophobic, is a big supporter of Trump. I remember she used to mock the disabled and gays, and one of her favorite words was the "n-word." She used to do all of this after studying her Bible. Maybe it's just a coincidence that she's a Trump enthusiast.

I recently posted a pic of donny's silly Space Force logo on another site that was funny and somehow, but doing that, a supporter of donny accused me of disrespecting the military and she won't stand for that because her son in in the military and blah blah blah.
She seemed to forget that 2 of my bothers served (one still does). Not only that, but how does posting a photo (totally G rated BTW) automatically equal me disrespecting the troops?!? When I brought that to her attention, she said "Well I must be one of those deplorables then!? SMH

I must wonder what Kurt must be doing if it's even more "un-Christian" than what Sean does!

We could probably guess

I think it's best to know any Christian, famous or obscure. That way we can judge their beliefs by judging them.

I try not to judge, but I'm not always successful. Thankfully, I'm not bound by any ancient thinking about not judging others unless you want to be judged (newsflash, I get judged DAILY).

After all, a perfect God won't inspire people to do evil, now would she?

Are we talking OT God or NT God? OT God was a crotchity old koot that killed people numerous times (but that's OK because, well, he's God - basically a do what I say not what I do type of god I suppose.
The NT God, well, he seemed to be the exact opposite.
Go figure.

[SallyF]

I wonder if this bloke collected his robe and crown …?

Did he ever say anything that his Bible didn't say …?

Was HE one of the few TRUE Christians …?

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 5 by SallyF]

Nah, he got it wrong. The bible is clear that God hates figs (Mark 11:20-21).

[bjs]

[Replying to Jagella]

If Christianity has any actual doctrines or beliefs, then that does mean that there is such a thing has heresy. If someone held those beliefs then, even if that person claimed to be a Christian, I would say that he/she is not a Christian.

David Koresh’s stated beliefs about the Lamb of God would be an example a belief which places him outside of Christianity.

[Jagella]

If Christianity has any actual doctrines or beliefs, then that does mean that there is such a thing has heresy.

Christians have a tough time figuring those doctrines out. They're split over the pope and the perpetuity of Mary's virginity, for two examples. So it seems to me that one Christian's sacred truth is another Christian's heresy.

If someone held those beliefs then, even if that person claimed to be a Christian, I would say that he/she is not a Christian.

You can say whatever you want, and so can they. They can say you're not a Christian and probably do.

David Koresh’s stated beliefs about the Lamb of God would be an example a belief which places him outside of Christianity.

He can "place you outside of Christianity" too.

Anyway, I remember shortly after the tragedy in Waco I was telling my neighbors that Koresh was reading the Bible. A Christian lady there pointed a bony finger in my face and shouted: "He was not reading our Bible. He was listening to the Devil!" For my safety I didn't tell her that it's hard to tell the difference.

[bjs]

You can say whatever you want, and so can they. They can say you're not a Christian and probably do.

This is why I limit my discussion to orthodox Christianity, which has clear cut doctrines and creeds.

[Tcg]

You can say whatever you want, and so can they. They can say you're not a Christian and probably do.

This is why I limit my discussion to orthodox Christianity, which has clear cut doctrines and creeds.

Yes, that is your usual habit. In post 7, however, which Jagella replied to, you include no such limitation. Beyond that, even if you had, it would not change the accuracy of Jagella's observations.


Tcg