Confused Theists?

[Zzyzx]

.
Confused Theists?

All I see are billions of confused theists who passionately disagree with each other over what they think their fantasy God should stand for.

As DI says, billions of 'Christians' (and tens of thousands of splinter groups) claiming knowledge of 'God', reading different versions of the Bible (55 in English), performing different rituals, pointing in different directions, telling different stories.

Theists in these debates often make very different claims for their 'God' and variously 'interpret' their Bible stories.

Sounds like cereal makers touting their product as best while having similar (often unhealthy) ingredients.

If Christianity has truth to offer, why does it speak with a forked tongue?

(Forked tongue defined as: “To make empty or false promises; to speak duplicitously or beguilingly.� https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com)

[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 2 by Jagella]
Evaluating the Truth of the New Testament.

The New Testament writers learned an important lesson from the Hebrew Scriptures. They learned about truth and lies.
How does the OT define Truth and Lies?

Here are some examples.

Abraham lied to Pharaoh when he said Sarah was his sister.
Genesis 12:18 (New American Standard Bible)
Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife?

Later Abraham used the same lie on Abimelech.
Genesis 20:2 (New American Standard Bible)
Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister " So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.

Isaac also used the same lie.
Genesis 26:7 (New American Standard Bible)
When the men of the place asked about his wife, he said, "She is my sister," for he was afraid to say, "my wife," thinking, "the men of the place might kill me on account of Rebekah, for she is beautiful."

Jacob lied to Isaac when he tricks his father into giving him the blessing for Esau.
Genesis 27:20 (New American Standard Bible)
Isaac said to his son, "How is it that you have it so quickly, my son?" And he said, "Because the LORD your God caused it to happen to me."
It was really a lamb that he was eating rather than wild game.
Genesis 27:24 (New American Standard Bible)
And he said, "Are you really my son Esau?" And he said, "I am."
But it was really Jacob lying and disguising his skin with the lamb’s hide.

There are numerous lies. If you are well read in the OT you know them.
The Hebrew Midwives lied.
Rahab the Harlot lied.
David lied numerous times.
Jehu lied
Moses lied.

The point is that all these lies were never punished, they were usually rewarded, and God never complained about these liars and their lies. The lies were always justified because they fit into God’s plan. God was not offended.
The lesson that the NT writers learned, IMO, is that a lie is justified if it promotes their theology. God will not be offended by their lies.
God doesn't mind a lie as long as it's for a good cause.




Take that into consideration when you evaluate the truthfulness of the New Testament.

[JehovahsWitness]

Abraham lied to Pharaoh when he said Sarah was his sister.
Genesis 12:18 (New American Standard Bible)
Then Pharaoh called Abram and said, "What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife?

Later Abraham used the same lie on Abimelech.
Genesis 20:2 (New American Standard Bible)
Abraham said of Sarah his wife, "She is my sister " So Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah.

Sarah was his sister, she was his half sister.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jacob lied to Isaac when he tricks his father into giving him the blessing for Esau.
Genesis 27:20 (New American Standard Bible)
Isaac said to his son, "How is it that you have it so quickly, my son?" And he said, "Because the LORD your God caused it to happen to me."
It was really a lamb that he was eating rather than wild game.
Genesis 27:24 (New American Standard Bible)
And he said, "Are you really my son Esau?" And he said, "I am."
But it was really Jacob lying and disguising his skin with the lamb’s hide.

Well for all intents and purposes, Jacob was "Esau" when it came to receiving the Blessing. It was rightfully his and Jacob manoeuvres events to get what he had a right to.

[JehovahsWitness]

Isaac also used the same lie.
Genesis 26:7 (New American Standard Bible)
When the men of the place asked about his wife, he said, "She is my sister," for he was afraid to say, "my wife," thinking, "the men of the place might kill me on account of Rebekah, for she is beautiful."

The Bible sometimes relates events without approving of the conduct involved; sometimes a report is just a report. God doesnt control everything his servants do.

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES GOD APPROVE OF LYING?

There are numerous lies. If you are well read in the OT you know them.
The Hebrew Midwives lied.
Rahab the Harlot lied.
David lied numerous times.
Jehu lied
Moses lied.

The point is that all these lies were never punished, they were usually rewarded ...

God doesnt intervene every time someone does something he doesn't approve of, otherwise there would be no atheists!



Even in bible times, God, for the most part, just let people to make their decisions and live with their lives independent of his direct input. Being merciful and kind his final JUDGEMENTS take into account our motives, general inclination, love of him and/or repentance. It is for these reason, not necessarily because he approved of their actions, that the people in your post were judged as righteous and forgiven any shortcomings they may have had.

God was not offended...God doesn't mind a lie as long as it's for a good cause.

• One should be careful not to extrapolate too much from a negative, lest we end up with a bogus "God of gaps". There can, as I explained be a host of reasons why God might refrain from manifesting his displeasure about a certain action and unless we are a mind reader it's better to draw conclusions about what we do know rather than speculate about what we dont. The bible is clear God hates lies, but it doesn't say he will send a bolt of lighting from heaven every time he hears one.

NOTE To label someone as "a liar" implies they habitually and systematically make lying a made part of their daily interactions, that lying is an intrinsic part of their personality, that the are dishonest in all they do and have a fundamental disregard of the truth. While few of us who are not George Washington, have never lied in our lives, I suspect we would be kind enough not to label ourselves so harshly. Perhaps we should refrain from throwing the rock of such accusations at others if we lack sufficient information to make such an assessment for fear of cracking some panes in our own glass houses.

JW


ps: can you remind me of what lies David, Jehu and Moses said... I hate it when I can remember a scripture.





RELATED POSTS

Does God approve of lying ?[this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 893#998893

Did Abraham lie when he said Sarah was his sister?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 885#998885

Did God approve of Isaac presenting Rebecca as his sister?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 888#998888

Why was Jacob not punished for saying hee was his brother Esau?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 887#998887

[tam]

Also (peace to you both!),

Some of those lies were told to save lives - and love covers over a multitude of sins (love is the law). For instance, the midwives lied in order to save babies from being murdered. This had nothing to do with promoting a theology, this was done to save lives.

[marco]

I don't believe Christianity speaks with "forked tongue" at all. If individuals or groups do so they disqualify themselves from being Christians. True Christianity is "the way" (the mode of life and body of beliefs) established by Christ and True Christianity exists today as an international body of Christians united in beliefs and bonded by unbreakabe by love (see John 13:35).

Juvenal asked: "Quis iudices iudicabit?" - Who will judge the judges? In the maelstrom that is Christian ideas, theories and suggestions I see that one group condemns another. Group X might condemn Baptists, while group Y dislikes Anglicans and then group Z takes issue with Catholics. While it is amusing to see little notices posted to show why Group J is the only true Christian group, I have seen other notices saying Group J is wrong.

However if there is a group of cathedrals that house "true Christians" I wonder who has made this judgement on them. God?

[marco]

Also (peace to you both!),

Some of those lies were told to save lives - and love covers over a multitude of sins (love is the law). For instance, the midwives lied in order to save babies from being murdered. This had nothing to do with promoting a theology, this was done to save lives.

Lying to save lives is a worthy strategy, Tam. Sadly, many who uphold Christian principles use them coldly to shun others. They quote what they think is Christ's instruction to hurt one's friends and relatives. One interpretation of Christ's words, about shaking the dust from one's sandals, is that people should shun those who don't believe their Christian view.

The outsider would say: Who are they to make such decisions and extract such interpretations when the key principle is that love overcomes all. Amor vincit omnia, as the Romans would say. So the outsider sees these Christian faults and failings and shaking the dust from his shoes, walks away. Can you blame him?

[Diagoras]

If Christianity has truth to offer, why does it speak with a forked tongue?

(Forked tongue defined as: “To make empty or false promises; to speak duplicitously or beguilingly.� https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com)

I dont believe Christianity speaks with "forked tongue" at all. If individuals or groups do so they disqualify themselves from being Christians.

Should that disqualification extend to those groups who repeatedly promise the end of the world, such as described here? Seems to me to be a clear case of ‘empty promises’.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Also (peace to you both!),

Some of those lies were told to save lives - and love covers over a multitude of sins (love is the law). For instance, the midwives lied in order to save babies from being murdered. This had nothing to do with promoting a theology, this was done to save lives.

Lying to save lives is a worthy strategy, Tam. Sadly, many who uphold Christian principles use them coldly to shun others. They quote what they think is Christ's instruction to hurt one's friends and relatives. One interpretation of Christ's words, about shaking the dust from one's sandals, is that people should shun those who don't believe their Christian view.

I agree, it is sad. It is sad that so few people who profess to know and follow Christ (and His Father) actually do (know or follow them). Religion gets in the way, because of course religion is not from God or His Son. Only one religion was from and was sanctioned by God (the temple and priesthood and law given to Moses), but it became corrupted, and even then, it was only supposed to be a tutor until Christ came. Then - as Christ said - the true worshippers would worship in spirit and in truth. NOT in Jerusalem (where the temple resided) and not on the mountain where the Samaritans worshipped. Not in religious institutions at all. But in a different way than those - in spirit and in truth.


This is one reason 'theists are confused'. Religion has a mixture of some truth (how else to mislead those who are sincerely seeking truth) and some falsehood. Religion is designed to mislead people; to stop people from coming to Christ and to God, to cause them to give up on faith altogether. It has succeeded in many cases; how many atheists even just on this board are atheists because of their previous religion? How many false images have been set up of "Jesus" by religion, many claiming to be the 'true religion'? There is no true religion. Truth is a person: Christ Jaheshua; and there are no lies in Him.


People forget (or do not consider) that the Adversary continues to transform himself into an angel (a messenger) of light. The beast that comes out of the sea - which gets its authority from the dragon (the Adversary) is religion. The beast that comes out of the earth (which is a religion) looks like a lamb but speaks like a dragon (and is not the native language of that ancient serpent, the dragon known as Satan - the language of lies?)



But whether you (general you) are able to get a sense of this or not, a Christian is supposed to be listening to Christ. Hold all things up against Him to see if they are true - against His words, His example, His commands (and ask Him - the living Christ - to teach you the truth, His truth). He and His words should come first (but often do not - Jeremiah 5:31). This is the first test that my Lord taught me regarding the inspired expressions (though you would think this would have been obvious - if Christ is the Truth, then obviously we should hold all things up against Him. Something in conflict with the truth cannot be true).


And there is no law against love. God is love. Test the inspired expressions or commands or teachings (from men, from religion, from anyone) against love. Love is the law of the new covenant, the law that is written upon the heart of those in the new covenant.


A dear sister of mine once pointed out that this is (at least one reason) my Lord loved Lazarus (who is also Simon) so much: Simon/Lazarus did not cast out his sister (Mary - the same woman who had been brought before my Lord to be stoned for adultery), even though according to the law, Simon could have done so. Simon surpassed the (written) law with love, against which there is no law. This is also how my Lord knew he could entrust the care of His mother to this disciple.



Be merciful and mercy will be shown you.

Forgive and you will be forgiven.

The outsider would say: Who are they to make such decisions and extract such interpretations when the key principle is that love overcomes all. Amor vincit omnia, as the Romans would say. So the outsider sees these Christian faults and failings and shaking the dust from his shoes, walks away. Can you blame him?

I certainly cannot blame anyone from walking away from religion; I have no part in religion myself. I would stress only that my Lord did not institute a new religion ("Christendom") or continue the previous one (which had become corrupt).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy