Pressing matters of the day and of all time, debated among thoughtful participants of all faiths

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Elijah John
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 8:31 am  A "tribal, bronze age god" Reply with quote

It is often claimed here, dismissively, that YHVH is nothing but a "tribal, bronze age god".

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by the the ancient Hebrew tribes. But now He is worshipped by billions, well beyond those tribes.

For debate, what makes YHVH's detractors so certain in their assumption that He is not the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe?
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 21: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:20 pm
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"

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SallyF wrote:

We have successfully establish that YHVH is as imaginary as any other god.


Maybe in your own mind, and in the minds of your echo-chamber. But I doubt you have convinced anyone else, especially not those of us who have experienced YHVH in our own lives.

So sorry, you don't get to make such a pronouncement, not here you don't. You have not established this at all, and you have not convinced anyone but yourselves.


Last edited by Elijah John on Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:50 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 22: Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:23 pm
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"

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Tcg wrote:

Elijah John wrote:


Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.



A friend of mine owns a 1916 Stanley Steamer. The fact that he still drives it doesn't turn it into something other than a 1916 Stanley Steamer.

Referring to YHVH as a bronze age god refers to his origin, the date of his creation. The same as with the Steamer, the fact that some worship YHVH today doesn't change his date of origin.


Tcg


Unless or course, YHVH pre-dates the bronze age, and pre-dates the creation of the universe itself.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 23: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:26 pm
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"

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Elijah John wrote:

SallyF wrote:

We have successfully establish that YHVH is as imaginary as any other god.


Maybe in your own mind, and in the minds of your echo-chamber. But I doubt you have convinced anyone else, especially not those of us who have experienced YHVH in our own lives.

So sorry, you don't get to make such a pronouncement, not here you don't. You have not established this at all, and you have not convinced anyone but yourselves.



All one needs to do is produce the tiniest whiff of evidence that Jehovah/Yahweh/YHVH/Whatever is anything other than imaginary …

And POOF …

Detractors are GONE like the Gadarene swine over a cliff.

But not a soul ever does.

And to those of us in echo chamber …

One god remains as imaginary as another.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 24: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:35 pm
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"

Like this post (1): Menotu
Elijah John wrote:

Tcg wrote:

Elijah John wrote:


Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.



A friend of mine owns a 1916 Stanley Steamer. The fact that he still drives it doesn't turn it into something other than a 1916 Stanley Steamer.

Referring to YHVH as a bronze age god refers to his origin, the date of his creation. The same as with the Steamer, the fact that some worship YHVH today doesn't change his date of origin.


Tcg


Unless or course, YHVH pre-dates the bronze age, and pre-dates the creation of the universe itself.



The very, very, very earliest one can date the as yet to be established as anything other than imaginary YHVH is about 1,400 years before the possibly fictional Jesus character broke the waters of his virginal mother.

The idea of "God" was around for thousands - perhaps hundreds of thousands - of years before anyone imagined the imaginary genocidal Jehovah.

And "God" seems to have been a bounteous loving earth mother …

Not a misogynous, genocidal old bigot in the sky.

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 25: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:43 am
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"

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Elijah John wrote:

Tcg wrote:

Elijah John wrote:


Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.



A friend of mine owns a 1916 Stanley Steamer. The fact that he still drives it doesn't turn it into something other than a 1916 Stanley Steamer.

Referring to YHVH as a bronze age god refers to his origin, the date of his creation. The same as with the Steamer, the fact that some worship YHVH today doesn't change his date of origin.


Tcg


Unless or course, YHVH pre-dates the bronze age, and pre-dates the creation of the universe itself.


Unless I've overlooked something, the closest you've come, in this thread, to explaining why you think YHVH pre-dates the bronze age is this statement:

Elijah John wrote:


But I doubt you have convinced anyone else, especially not those of us who have experienced YHVH in our own lives.



I have no doubt that you have had experiences of some kind. I also don't question that you think they were experiences of YHVH. Your conclusion, however, is not evidence of YHVH. It is evidence that you have had convincing experiences.

People have experiences all the time that lead them to very different conclusions. The fact that people have drawn conclusions based on experiences is not evidence that the conclusions are factual.

Beyond this, even if it is true that you've experienced YHVH, how could that possibly lead one to conclude that YHVH pre-dates the bronze age much less the formation of the universe? At best it would lead to the conclusion that YHVH dates at least to the first time you experienced him.


Tcg

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 26: Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:41 am
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"

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SallyF wrote:



The idea of "God" was around for thousands - perhaps hundreds of thousands - of years before anyone imagined the imaginary genocidal Jehovah.

And "God" seems to have been a bounteous loving earth mother …

Not a misogynous, genocidal old bigot in the sky.


It's a good idea to get a god identified with one's town (Athens and Pallas Athene) or intimately linked with one's tribe (Jehovah). In that way the God one has created becomes a psychological weapon. While many read the accounts of Jehovah with great seriousness it is extremely hard not to laugh at a deity who sends frogs as a present to an Egyptian ruler or puffs like the wolf in the tale of the three pigs and blows the Red Sea aside. The temptation to make Jehovah a merciless soldier was obviously too much for the script writers. His cruelty magnifies him, makes him more frightening and gets people to be submissive. He is undoubtedly, from all the tales we read of him, a tribal creation.

Jesus piously refrained from commenting on his dad's rough side and the model he made is pretty decent in that he does absolutely nothing. He doesn't turn Pilate into a pillar of salt but is happy to shout compliments off-stage. In any event he has become a God of mercy, without demonstrating the slightest tendency towards mercy, as has his second cousin, Allah, who can threaten to burn flesh eternally and still attract the epithet merciful. What a work of art is man!

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Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 27: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:00 am
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"

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Elijah John wrote:

It is often claimed here, dismissively, that YHVH is nothing but a "tribal, bronze age god".

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by the the ancient Hebrew tribes. But now He is worshipped by billions, well beyond those tribes.

For debate, what makes YHVH's detractors so certain in their assumption that He is not the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe?


YHVH revealed to me that the OP is attempting to shift the burden of proof onto the skeptic. What makes you so sure YHVH did not reveal that to me? (You see what I did there? Did you see it?)

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