Medical miracles at Lourdes?

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Mithrae
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Medical miracles at Lourdes?

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Post by Mithrae »

Since the alleged apparitions of Mary there in 1858, it's estimated that over 200 million people have visited the shrine at Lourdes, over 4 million per year as of the 1980s. Many of these - some 65,000 per year in the 1980s - are "registered and documented as sick" (Dowling, 1984), and some visitors claim that their illnesses have been healed in their visits to the shrine. Greater or lesser degrees of investigation and scepticism have attended these claims over the centuries, but since the late 1940s/early 1950s a three-part process has been in place:

> Initial discussion and follow-up by the Lourdes Medical Bureau - If it appears that a claim of a cure is serious, the chief physician at Lourdes convenes a 'Bureau' for discussing the case, to which all doctors and healthcare workers present in Lourdes at that time are invited, regardless of their religious belief. The Bureau doesn't make an immediate decision - the alleged cure may be just a temporary remission after all - but a file will be passed on to the next stage if and when a three-quarters majority is satisfied that a genuine cure has occurred.

> Detailed investigation by the International Medical Committee of Lourdes (CMIL) - A national committee from 1947 and international from 1954, this committee consists of twenty to thirty doctors and medical professors "respected in their own particular area." Members are not always all Catholics, though judging by statements on their website they probably are all Christians; it is chaired jointly by the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes and one of its members nominated by the Bishop, with the doctor of Lourdes serving as secretary. One or more of its members are charged with examining a case in detail and informing themselves on all the medical literature published on related subjects, potentially consulting with colleagues on the outside, and reporting at an annual meeting. When everything is in place (which can take some time) the committee decides by way of a vote whether to declare or refuse to confirm that this cure is inexplicable according to present scientific knowledge. This vote requires a two-thirds majority to pass. An article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine (Dowling, 1984) describes the process in some detail:
  • The report is then discussed critically at length under 18 headings, a vote being taken at each stage. In the first three stages the Committee considers the diagnosis and has to satisfy itself that a correct diagnosis has been made and proven by the production of the results of full physical examination, laboratory investigations, X-ray studies and endoscopy and biopsy where applicable: failure at this stage is commonly because of inadequate investigation or missing documents. At the next two stages the Committee must be satisfied that the disease was organic and serious without any significant degree of psychological overlay. Next it must make sure that the natural history of the disease precludes the possibility of spontaneous remission and that the medical treatment given cannot have effected the cure: cases ruled out here are those about which there cannot be any certainty that the treatment has not been effective - e.g. a course of cytotoxic drugs would lead to the case being rejected, even where the likelihood of success was small. Then the evidence that the patient has indeed been cured is scrutinized and the Committee must be satisfied that both objective signs and subjective symptoms have disappeared and that investigations are normal. The suddenness and completeness of the cure are considered together with any sequelae. Finally, the adequacy of the length of follow up is considered.
> Ecclesiastical confirmation as a 'miracle' - Not really important for our purposes, except to note that there may be more cures that passed the first two stages which aren't seen on the publicized miracle lists; for example, the patient's local bishop is unlikely to confirm a cure as an act of God if the patient has since lived a life of depravity. But perhaps more importantly, it means that the medical professionals consulted along the way are not asked to make a judgement about miracles, only on whether an illness was organic and serious, whether an 'instantaneous' cure occurred, and whether it can be explained by current medical science.

There have been twenty-eight Lourdes healings confirmed as miraculous since 1948. For my own ease of reference, I have listed the modern cures both in order of the cure date, and in order they were declared to be miracles here in Google Sheets, which should be visible to anyone.



Personal assessment
It's possible that they were all 'miracles' of course, but as a sceptic there are some obvious problems with assuming that to be the case. For starters, if up to one-third of the CMIL members - Christian doctors nominated by the Catholic Church - may have considered some of those miracles to be explainable by the medical science of their own day, why should any non-Christian sceptic give them a second thought? And secondly, the occurrence of those alleged miracles is remarkably unbalanced: Going by date of cure rather than date of acknowledgement, there were seven miraculous cures in the 1940s and eleven in the 1950s... then two in the 1960s, two in the 1970s and two in the 1980s.

From those numbers, I think it's not unreasonable to suppose that the Bureau and Committee since the 1960s has held itself to higher standards of scepticism than in the 1940s and 50s. That doesn't mean that the earlier cures were not miraculous; though with human error and biases being what they are, not to mention more limited medical knowledge and technology in earlier decades, presumably some of them were not. But if we hold ourselves to the highest levels of scepticism, and given our limited time and patience for a full investigation, it would be sensible focus only on the acknowledged cures which have occurred since 1960.

Considering the first problem, I contacted the enquiries center of the Lourdes website, asking "whether there is any record for the breakdown of votes on whether a healing is unexplained: EG, Were there any unanimous or near-unanimous votes, and how many were a narrow majority?" They eventually replied saying that "Unfortunately there are no records of votes on the cures that have been discussed and voted at CMIL. The required quorum is however of at least 2/3 of the voters." That's disappointing. However I think that any easy presumptions on that basis are offset by two key points:
- The fact, which I didn't initially know, that referral from the Bureau requires at least a three-quarters majority of doctors not specifically nominated by the Church (albeit presumably less informed on the specifics of both the illness and the case than the CMIL will be), and
- The decision above to focus primarily on cures where the process was obviously not as 'trigger-happy' as it was (albeit only by comparison!*) in the first thirteen years.

* Of the cases examined in an article from Oxford University's Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences (Francois et al, 2012; Figure 2), in the first thirteen years from 1947, some 14 cures were confirmed by the Committee compared with 648 files open with the Bureau (2.16%); whereas throughout the 60s, 70s and 80s there were 11 confirmed cures against 693 open Bureau files (1.59%).

A third obvious and often-raised point of potential scepticism regarding the cures of Lourdes generally is that they seem to have stopped - the last confirmed cure occurred in 1989. However I think this one is mistaken or misleading for at least two reasons. Firstly, the implication that if no alleged cures from 1990 onwards are 'medically inexplicable' the earlier cures mustn't have been remarkable either is faulty logic; if that were so, it should be relatively easy for modern doctors to explain many of those alleged miracles, yet that doesn't generally seem to be the case (see below). But secondly and perhaps more importantly, there seems to be little reason to expect that there should have been many cures since 1990 confirmed yet to begin with. Based on the six confirmed cures which have occurred since 1960, the average wait between the cure and its confirmation as a 'miracle' has been over 19 years; so by 2017, we'd have little reason to expect that any cures since 1999 would have been confirmed yet. And with an average of one cure per five years during 1960-1990, we might somewhat fallaciously expect that there 'should' have been a cure from the mid 1990s confirmed by now, but that's about it. That is obviously a very poor basis for any presumption that the cures have stopped!



Sceptical reactions
Obviously before leaping to any conclusions, it's important to have a look around and see if there are any easy or obvious alternatives to consider. However outside of a few specifics, this doesn't seem to be the case:
> The Skeptic's Dictionary provides some interesting perspectives and statistics, but does not actually dispute any of the 28 'miracles' confirmed since 1948.
> The Miracle Sceptic site offers a great deal of scathing rhetoric, but directly disputes only a single one of the reported miracles (Delizia Cirolli, cured 1976).
> A second disputed case is reported by James Randi, as quoted in Wikipedia (Serge Perrin, cured 1970; which may be alluded to in the Miracle Sceptic site, though in the midst of all its vague rhetoric it's hard to be sure).

In both of the latter cases, the sceptics appeal to alternative medical opinions which necessarily will be less familiar with the specifics of the case than the doctors doing the initial investigations. Moreover one cannot help but wonder whether they would get the same answers if they asked two or three or different doctor's/groups' opinions; or indeed, whether they had to ask for a few opinions before getting the sceptical responses publicized. Nevertheless these - like the 'mere' two-thirds majority vote required by the CMIL - highlight the fact that unanimity is virtually impossible to attain in any field outside mathematics and the hard physical sciences (and even then, often only after a matter of decades!). I'm reminded of the fact that only 80-90% of climate scientists acknowledge the dominant human impact on recent warming, for example :lol:

An even more interesting sceptical opinion comes from a member of the CMIL himself which I was lucky enough to stumble across in a transcript of a BBC radio programme. Dr. Dennis Daly offers a somewhat scathing criticism for the case of "an Italian soldier" (Vittorio Michelli, cured 1963), which I'm inclined to agree was a suspect case from what I've read elsewhere. But the main topic of the programme was the cure of Jean-Pierre Bely (cured 1987), which Dr. Daly evidently cast his vote as being not currently medically inexplicable, simply on the basis of doubts about the diagnosis.

This is particularly interesting because it highlights how stringent the Lourdes requirements actually are: Members of the CMIL consider, quite fairly and appropriately, that they should refrain from giving a positive vote to a cure such as Bely's merely because they question the specific diagnosis. This is already quite a long OP, so I'll make this the only one of the six post-1960 cures that I describe, at least to begin with. But I think it's important to note (while also bearing in mind that most of the doctors did confirm this diagnosis) that even with his speculation that the illness may have been "psychological or psychiatric," Dr. Daly suggests that this cure would be "still a very remarkable thing":
  • Bely was born on August 24, 1936. By profession, he was an anesthesia and intensive-care nurse. In 1972 he began to suffer growing neurological incapacity, which eventually was diagnosed as multiple sclerosis. By 1984 he was walking with a cane, and in 1985 he required a wheelchair. Two years later, he was in a devastating state: bedridden, he received a 100% invalidity pension and an allowance for a third person to look after him.

    In October, 1987, Jean-Pierre Bely went on pilgrimage to Lourdes. After celebrating the Sacrament of Reconciliation in the sick room on October 8, Bely received the Sacrament of the Sick the next day during Mass in the Rosary Square. He was part of the French Rosary Pilgrimage. All of a sudden, he was overcome by a powerful sense of interior liberation and peace, something he had never experienced before.

    On Friday, October 9 at midday, while lying in the sick room he experienced a sense of cold which grew stronger and became painful only to give way to a subsequent feeling of warmth which grew in intensity. Bely sat on the edge of his bed and was able to move his arms. The following night, although in a deep sleep, he woke up suddenly and discovered he could walk -- for the first time, since 1984.

    At the end of the pilgrimage, Bely traveled to the station in his wheelchair, so as not to appear different from his "companions in sickness." But by the time he reached the train, he decided to enter alone and remain seated during the return journey to his home town of Angouleme. He had regained the complete use of his physical faculties, and the medical reports showed no trace of illness.

Was this a miracle cure? It's obvious that even with all the careful documentation and investigation in place at Lourdes, it is quite probably impossible to achieve unanimity and certainty in this area (as in any other). But perhaps a more pertinent question would be whether even the most die-hard sceptics can brush incidents like this aside without question or pause? Is the oft-repeated mantra of "zero evidence" that paranormal events occur actually an objective assessment?

Or should a reasonable enquirer conclude that there is very intriguing and even compelling evidence, regardless of whether or not it meets one's personal threshold for 'belief,' for trying to fit it into one's worldview?

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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

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Post by marco »

Mithrae wrote:
Was this a miracle cure?
Fascinating. A Glasgow man, John Fagan in 1967, developed a large tumour in his stomach and the entire parish prayed to Blessed John Ogilvie for a miracle. His wife kept vigil at his bedside and he slipped into a coma. The family doctor visited late at night and told Mary she had to prepare herself, as he expected her husband to die during the night and that he would return in the morning to sign the death certificate. But he lived and the cancer vanished. John Ogilvie was declared a saint through whom the miracle had been accomplished.

We have since discovered that the body produces an agent, interferon, that can stop a cancer. Perhaps a miracle is the name for a process we have yet to discover or understand. The mind, too, is a great healer when it believes strongly enough, as with placebo drugs.

All the same, if miracles do appear to happen at Lourdes, can anyone be blamed for going there and hoping for a cure? Does it matter if it is the hand of God or a yet unknown process?

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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #3

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

So let me get this straight. A tiny town in France 15,000 souls big is getting 4,000,000 unique tourists a yearbecuase of a "miracle", and a panel of doctors from Lourdes supposedly certified this miracle. Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but do the doctors not have a vested interest in certifying this as a miracle whether it happened or not?
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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

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Post by Kenisaw »

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

There is no reason to think it is a miracle cure. Because, as is always the case with supposed miracles, there is zero evidence or data for the existence of the god being that caused the miracle to happen. One should prove that gods exist first, before claiming they did something. As we all know too well, such data is never provided, apparently because none exists. So instead we are treated to back door efforts such as this as a way to logic in the existence of the god creature.

I agree with Marco that things like hope, expectation, and mood play a role in human health. There is much study on the subject. If nothing else it would behoove medical science to closely track such things as places like Lourdes. As the published paper titled "The Lourdes Medical Cures Revisited" states: "we reached the same conclusions as Carrel some eighty to hundred years ago: “Instead of being a simple place of miracles, of interest only to the pious, Lourdes presents a considerable scientific interest,� and “the miraculous cures are evidence of somatic and mental processes we do not know.�60 Upping the ante, we dare write that understanding these processes could bring about new and effective therapeutic methods."

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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #5

Post by Mithrae »

Kenisaw wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

There is no reason to think it is a miracle cure. Because, as is always the case with supposed miracles, there is zero evidence or data for the existence of the god being that caused the miracle to happen. One should prove that gods exist first, before claiming they did something. As we all know too well, such data is never provided, apparently because none exists. So instead we are treated to back door efforts such as this as a way to logic in the existence of the god creature.
I didn't ask whether the cure was caused by a god, I asked whether it could legitimately be considered a 'miracle' or paranormal event. Speaking of "back door efforts," how would you describe assuming details about the causal process of an event in order to dismiss its plausibility?

If the existence of a god was proven with 100% certainty - or even with 30 to 70% probability, which is easily done - you would then simply modify your 'argument' to "First one must prove that god intervenes in nature, before claiming that they did so"... and then "First one must prove that god intervenes in this manner." The absurdity of such an approach is obvious.

#####
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

So let me get this straight. A tiny town in France 15,000 souls big is getting 4,000,000 unique tourists a yearbecuase of a "miracle", and a panel of doctors from Lourdes supposedly certified this miracle. Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but do the doctors not have a vested interest in certifying this as a miracle whether it happened or not?
You really don't understand the word "International" do you? On such foundations of quicksand are the more extreme versions of 'scepticism' built :lol:

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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #6

Post by Mithrae »

marco wrote:
Mithrae wrote:
Was this a miracle cure?
Fascinating. A Glasgow man, John Fagan in 1967, developed a large tumour in his stomach and the entire parish prayed to Blessed John Ogilvie for a miracle. His wife kept vigil at his bedside and he slipped into a coma. The family doctor visited late at night and told Mary she had to prepare herself, as he expected her husband to die during the night and that he would return in the morning to sign the death certificate. But he lived and the cancer vanished. John Ogilvie was declared a saint through whom the miracle had been accomplished.

We have since discovered that the body produces an agent, interferon, that can stop a cancer. Perhaps a miracle is the name for a process we have yet to discover or understand. The mind, too, is a great healer when it believes strongly enough, as with placebo drugs.

All the same, if miracles do appear to happen at Lourdes, can anyone be blamed for going there and hoping for a cure? Does it matter if it is the hand of God or a yet unknown process?
I imagine that even many ardent believers in the Lourdes 'miracles' would agree that we should hope for and search for scientific explanations of such cures, because if and when we find them it opens up the likelihood of making them more widely and consistently available.

But obviously, hope is not the same thing as evidence. If an event cannot be explained by modern science, postulating that the science of future decades or centuries might have more success is (at best) one possible 'explanation' of the event. And calling that an explanation would be more than a bit of a stretch! By contrast, in this case the site's history as a sacred shrine strongly suggests a religious, perhaps even specifically Catholic explanation; one which could be considered ad hoc in other circumstances, but is obviously not in this case and becomes legitimate in the absence of any other explanations.

I'm hardly a fan of traditional Christianity, and Catholicism least of all, but this was the first result I got from Googling confirmed miracles so I have to work with what's in front of me. I can always hope that further on down the track I can find some Buddhist and Hindu 'miracles' which justify a more ecumenical explanation :lol:





Edit: I'll repost the summary I posted in another thread, in case any readers skim over the lengthy OP.

A fellow was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, a debilitating disease of the central nervous system for which no known cure exists to this day. Over several years his condition deteriorated until he was in a wheelchair in 1985, and continued to worsen over the next two years; bedridden, he was on a 100% invalidity pension from the French government with an allowance for a third party carer. Then, taken for a pilgrimage to the Marian shrine at Lourdes in October 1987, he felt sensations of overwhelming peace, then chills warming to a great heat throughout his body... and then he could walk.

Two different panels of doctors - the Lourdes Medical Bureau, convened from all doctors and health professionals in Lourdes at the time, regardless of religious beliefs, and the 20+ member International Medical Committee of Lourdes comprised of respected medical professors and doctors from a variety of nations meeting annually - certified the cure with overwhelming majority votes, the latter panel doing detailed investigations to confirm the initial diagnosis and years of follow-up to ensure it was a full recovery not merely a temporary remission.

This was just one out of six 'miracles' which have occurred there since 1960, all confirmed under the same process. I've so far found two articles in the peer-reviewed scientific literature discussing the Lourdes phenomenon, neither of which suggest that the cures are hoaxes or medically explainable, and even the explicitly sceptical sources I've checked specifically dispute the validity of only three or four of those cases (obviously still a long way from disproving them).

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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #7

Post by Kenisaw »

Mithrae wrote:
Kenisaw wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

There is no reason to think it is a miracle cure. Because, as is always the case with supposed miracles, there is zero evidence or data for the existence of the god being that caused the miracle to happen. One should prove that gods exist first, before claiming they did something. As we all know too well, such data is never provided, apparently because none exists. So instead we are treated to back door efforts such as this as a way to logic in the existence of the god creature.
I didn't ask whether the cure was caused by a god, I asked whether it could legitimately be considered a 'miracle' or paranormal event. Speaking of "back door efforts," how would you describe assuming details about the causal process of an event in order to dismiss its plausibility?
Type miracle into google, here's the first thing you see: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency." You talk about miracle cures, the credit for which is given to a site connected to a claimed event specific to a certain dogma, and yet you have the unmitigated gall to pretend you aren't invoking some brand of godly action in association with the cure?

You plan on always trying to play little games like this in your posts, or was this just a special event in honor of Monday's eclipse?

By the way, if you have any links to documents related to these cures, please post them.
If the existence of a god was proven with 100% certainty - or even with 30 to 70% probability, which is easily done - you would then simply modify your 'argument' to "First one must prove that god intervenes in nature, before claiming that they did so"... and then "First one must prove that god intervenes in this manner." The absurdity of such an approach is obvious.
LOL. I missed that in that thread. I've posted a reply in it. In the meantime, still awaiting your empirical data and evidence for the existence of anything magical
DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]

So let me get this straight. A tiny town in France 15,000 souls big is getting 4,000,000 unique tourists a yearbecuase of a "miracle", and a panel of doctors from Lourdes supposedly certified this miracle. Excuse me for pointing out the obvious but do the doctors not have a vested interest in certifying this as a miracle whether it happened or not?
You really don't understand the word "International" do you? On such foundations of quicksand are the more extreme versions of 'scepticism' built :lol:
Maybe you should look up the homogenous membership of the ILMB (or CMIL in French) before commenting next time. Maybe you should see that the board has two leaders - a bishop, and someone appointed by that same bishop. Maybe you should know that every member of the bureau is given a cross that says "I believe" on it to wear.

Quite the independent panel, eh?

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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #8

Post by Mithrae »

Kenisaw wrote:
Mithrae wrote: I didn't ask whether the cure was caused by a god, I asked whether it could legitimately be considered a 'miracle' or paranormal event. Speaking of "back door efforts," how would you describe assuming details about the causal process of an event in order to dismiss its plausibility?
Type miracle into google, here's the first thing you see: "a surprising and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency." You talk about miracle cures, the credit for which is given to a site connected to a claimed event specific to a certain dogma, and yet you have the unmitigated gall to pretend you aren't invoking some brand of godly action in association with the cure?
Google must be well on its way towards personalization/tracking your every internet move, because when I google 'miracle' my #1 result is the Dota2 player who a couple of weeks ago helped Team Liquid win almost $11 million USD for The International 2017. Only about 9 times larger team prize (or 20x larger individual prize) than the SuperBowl winners 8-)

Bit of a shame really, because I haven't actually watched the games yet and wasn't certain who'd won :(

Regardless, try reading my post, and see how frequently 'miracle' is apostrophized, particularly at the point of "Ecclesiastical confirmation as a 'miracle'."
Kenisaw wrote:
If the existence of a god was proven with 100% certainty - or even with 30 to 70% probability, which is easily done - you would then simply modify your 'argument' to "First one must prove that god intervenes in nature, before claiming that they did so"... and then "First one must prove that god intervenes in this manner." The absurdity of such an approach is obvious.
LOL. I missed that in that thread. I've posted a reply in it. In the meantime, still awaiting your empirical data and evidence for the existence of anything magical
We debated in that thread and at one point I did specifically refer you back to that earlier exchange with Marco, though I hardly blame you for not searching those posts out! I appreciate your response. In the meantime, do you acknowledge that the form of your argument above is fallacious? If something outside the 'natural order' is shown with a high level of confidence, it necessarily shows with a high level of confidence that there is something outside the 'natural order'!

Granted, no matter how overwhelming the evidence may be there could always be far-fetched ad hoc alternative speculations which nevertheless lie within the 'natural order.' I'm pretty sure no-one - no-one - on this forum would dispute that; hence, something outside the 'natural order' could only be shown with a high level of confidence at best, never with certainty.

But what you are doing is demanding that it first be proved that there can be anything outside the 'natural order' - that there can be a god to make miracles possible. That is a demand which is
A) circular or presuppositional to begin with because you are assuming a 'natural order,' where realistically all we should be talking about is normal or common stuff (which obviously does not preclude paranormal or weird stuff),
B) circular again, because as noted the evidence for paranormal stuff is correspondingly strong evidence for a paranormal aspect to reality, but especially
C) as I highlighted initially it's also a demand which is arbitrary and meaningless, since it can be made as broadly or as narrowly as you feel inclined at any given moment.

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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #9

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 5 by Mithrae]

The people in charge of the panel were from Lourdes. It is not hard to skew a panel like this especially if you are seeking a specific result.

I would be more convinced if the WHO or some independent body actually investigated this.
it is chaired jointly by the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes and one of its members nominated by the Bishop, with the doctor of Lourdes serving as secretary

Moreover, this panel does not in the least represent a science nor evidence based approach. Merely a panel of doctors appointed by a bishop and local doctor, asked to give their opinion on whether or not this was a miracle.

There is a Fellini film that features Lourdes it's pretty hilarious I suggest watching it.
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Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #10

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]
But perhaps a more pertinent question would be whether even the most die-hard sceptics can brush incidents like this aside without question or pause?
There might be something to this incident. It seems very possible to me that nature sometimes acts in ways we may not expect. Is a god performing magic in there somewhere? Maybe. Maybe not.

In any case, we skeptics are still waiting for that restored limb. I do hope that God is responsible enough to have the media there to get it on camera. Some known and respected investigator of the paranormal like James Randi should be there too to check things out.

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