Cassander wrote:Also remember that the sentence before women are commanded to submit to their husbands, men and women are told to submit to EACHOTHER!
But husbands are never told directly to submit in any way to their wives. According to Paul the wife should go so far as to "reverence" her husband. You don't reverence something unless you think they are somewhat greater then you are.
The verse being discussed here is Ephesians 5:21. It is a verse that applies to believers, that is, both men and women. Therefore, Paul is telling both men and women to submit to one another in reverence.
The word "reverence" means "to show respect to". I don't see anything subservient or lesser in being respectful of someone. I see courtesy and I see consideration and those are good things, things we should all have for everybody else. As Paul says, we should count ourselves lesser than all others, in humility, putting others before ourselves, living out the kind of sacrificial love that Christ showed for us.
The whole Bible from the beginning to end has a rather low concept of women. It's not just what Pauls says. Even in Genisis... "He shall RULE over thee" It was a punishment to the women that she was now much lower then the man. It was given as a curse.
Yes, a curse that was lifted by Jesus Christ at the cross. You are right in saying that women were not highly respected in Old Testament times. However, in the New Testament we see a change. Paul states clearly that, in Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, male or female, all are one to him.
Let's not forget that Jesus talked with a Samaritan woman, something that was taboo in that culture at that time. Plus, we see women in the early church fulfilling a variety of roles following Christ's death and resurrection. Phoebe is one example. Lydia is another.
I think that people mistakenly believe that women were put down because of misinterpretations of what Paul said about women. More on that further down in this post.
How do you decide what is right and what is not right? Preconceived ideas?
Everything must be measured using the Word of God as a yardstick. How does one correctly understand the Bible? First of all, a person has to be filled with the Holy Spirit. He's the best instructor. Secondly, a person must read the WHOLE Bible to understand specific verses in context. Thirdly, a person must study the Bible in its original languages. Since everybody isn't a Greek or Hebrew scholar, we must study the exegetical work of those who are. Fourthly, we must use our intelligence to help us sort it all out.
There is an excellent book by John Temple Bristow called What Paul Really Said About Women. It takes a look at the New Testament passages about women. He concludes the following:
First of all, some early church fathers were greatly influenced by the misogynistic secular philosophers of their times.
Secondly, the original Greek words carry different connotations than our English translations provide. For example, when Paul admonishes women not to speak in church, he isn't issing an order that says they must never preach or lead in prayer or worship. The Greek word used specifically refers to chattering, that is, Paul was asking the women not to talk among themselves during the worship as it was disruptive.
Up until this point, women were not taught the way that men were. However, they were now included and given instruction in the Scriptures. That's a big step in equality, one made because of Christ's inclusion of women in the New Covenant.
Here's one more example of a misinterpretation of what Paul said: The word "submiit" carries NO connotation of a lesser being in the original Greek. In fact, the word carries the meaning of "be supportive of" and "be loyal to". I don't think even the most diehard feminist would have a problem with relating to her husband with this meaning of submission.
As for Martin Luther, he seems to have been a woman-hater as well as a Jew-hater...
Having just completed a course on the theology of Martin Luther, I would take issue with this description of him. He greatly reverenced (as in respected!!!) his wife and spoke in glowing terms of her all the time. His teachings on marriage encouraged strong families and well-being for both the men and the women involved
As for his feelings about Jews, that's more complicated and should be dealt with in a separate thread.
