The World as a Test

[Wootah]

Hi all,

My understanding of Islam is that Allah created the world to test humans and those that passed would go to paradise.

On that understanding here are my issues with that belief system.

* Allah created evil.

Implicit in the world as a test is that Allah created man to die, created diseases, suffering and all the rest to test us. I have seen a video of a Muslim apologist in response to the 'problem of evil' go so far as to say that there is no such thing as evil.

* Is the test fair?

* Since Allah places a seal on people's hearts how is that fair on a person still undergoing the test?


Thanks,

Wootah

[Murad]

Hey bernee, i posted a few questions for you in the "Question a specific user" section.


@Wootah

Thats the basic difference between Islam & Christianity.
Christianity = Earth is a punishment
Islam = Earth is a test
-
Christianity = Believe Jesus died for your sins, enter paradise
Islam = No one dies for anyone, paradise is gained through work & deeds

Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until [even their] messenger and those who believed with him said,"When is the help of Allah ?" Unquestionably, the help of Allah is near.
(Quran, Al-Baqarah 2:214)

And i hope you didn't take that "Seal on the hearts" phrase literally.

[Wootah]

Hey bernee, i posted a few questions for you in the "Question a specific user" section.


@Wootah

Thats the basic difference between Islam & Christianity.
Christianity = Earth is a punishment
Islam = Earth is a test
-
Christianity = Believe Jesus died for your sins, enter paradise
Islam = No one dies for anyone, paradise is gained through work & deeds

Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until [even their] messenger and those who believed with him said,"When is the help of Allah ?" Unquestionably, the help of Allah is near.
(Quran, Al-Baqarah 2:214)

And i hope you didn't take that "Seal on the hearts" phrase literally.

Hi Murad,

When you say, 'paradise is gained through work & deeds' are you are saying that a Muslim can pass the test. That through your own actions you can be made self-righteous?

How should I take the 'seal on the hearts' phrase? What does it mean such that you can show Allah is not unjust in creating a test and preventing people from passing it?

[Woland]

Deleted in favor of opening a thread so as to not hijack this one.

[Murad]

Hey bernee, i posted a few questions for you in the "Question a specific user" section.


@Wootah

Thats the basic difference between Islam & Christianity.
Christianity = Earth is a punishment
Islam = Earth is a test
-
Christianity = Believe Jesus died for your sins, enter paradise
Islam = No one dies for anyone, paradise is gained through work & deeds

Or do you think that you will enter Paradise while such [trial] has not yet come to you as came to those who passed on before you? They were touched by poverty and hardship and were shaken until [even their] messenger and those who believed with him said,"When is the help of Allah ?" Unquestionably, the help of Allah is near.
(Quran, Al-Baqarah 2:214)

And i hope you didn't take that "Seal on the hearts" phrase literally.

Hi Murad,

When you say, 'paradise is gained through work & deeds' are you are saying that a Muslim can pass the test. That through your own actions you can be made self-righteous?

Yes.
One of the most basic Islamic Teachings is that Gods mercy exceeds his anger(towards sin).

Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
(Quran 39:53)

Like Judaism, repentance is the only 'salvation', every man is responsible for himself.

Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!
(Qur'an, sura 2 (Al-Baqara), ayah 21)

How should I take the 'seal on the hearts' phrase?

Its a Metaphorical phrase in Islam, those who reject God are considered to have their hearts 'sealed up'.
To clarify:

“Truly, Allah does not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.� (Quran 13:11)

What does it mean such that you can show Allah is not unjust in creating a test and preventing people from passing it?

The reply is given in 4:40-42

Divine Justice


[4:40] GOD does not inflict an atom's weight of injustice. On the contrary, He multiplies the reward manifold for the righteous work, and grants from Him a great recompense.

[4:41] Thus, when the day (of judgment) comes, we will call upon a witness from each community, and you (the messenger) will serve as a witness among these people.

[4:42] On that day, those who disbelieved and disobeyed the messenger will wish that they were level with the ground; not a single utterance will they be able to hide from GOD.

[bernee51]

Hey bernee, i posted a few questions for you in the "Question a specific user" section.

I have addressed them.

[Wootah]

When you say, 'paradise is gained through work & deeds' are you are saying that a Muslim can pass the test. That through your own actions you can be made self-righteous?

Yes.
One of the most basic Islamic Teachings is that Gods mercy exceeds his anger(towards sin).

Is that 'yes a Muslim can pass the test' or 'yes that Allah's mercy exceeds his anger so you fail the test but he shows mercy'?

If you are saying that you can pass the test then why do you need Allah's mercy?

If you are saying that you can't pass the test without Allah's mercy then how is Allah just to allow people that fail the test to get into paradise?

[Murad]

When you say, 'paradise is gained through work & deeds' are you are saying that a Muslim can pass the test. That through your own actions you can be made self-righteous?

Yes.
One of the most basic Islamic Teachings is that Gods mercy exceeds his anger(towards sin).

Is that 'yes a Muslim can pass the test' or 'yes that Allah's mercy exceeds his anger so you fail the test but he shows mercy'?

Yes you can 'technically' 'pass' without Gods mercy (If your Good deeds outweigh your Bad deeds), but mans nature is to sin repeatedly, so its much more wise & noble to ask for forgiveness while doing good deeds. Being 'Proud' to repent is a grave sin in Islam, one of the most horrendous:

“Certainly He does not love the proud ones.� (16:23)

“I shall turn away from My revelations those who show pride in the world wrongfully.� (7.146)

If you are saying that you can pass the test then why do you need Allah's mercy?

Can you guarantee you wont Sin tomorrow?
Can you guarantee your Good deeds will outweigh your bad deeds?

"Those (are the true believers) who, when they commit an evil deed, or wrong their souls, remember Allah, and seek forgiveness for their sins - and who but Allah forgives sins? They do not insist upon the sins they have committed, and they know (that Allah is forgiving)."
[Qur'an 3:135]

If you are saying that you can't pass the test without Allah's mercy then how is Allah just to allow people that fail the test to get into paradise?

You dont fail the test if your sins are forgiven do you?

�Indeed, Allah does not do injustice [even] as much as an atom’s weight; while if there is a good deed, He multiplies it and gives from Himself a great reward.� (Qur’an 4:40)

To clarify a few things:

“Shall we inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds?� [They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work.� Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any weight [i.e. importance].
[Qur’an 18:103-105]

[Wootah]

Yes you can 'technically' 'pass' without Gods mercy (If your Good deeds outweigh your Bad deeds), but mans nature is to sin repeatedly, so its much more wise & noble to ask for forgiveness while doing good deeds.

So how many Muslims realistically pass the test this way? On estimate?

You dont fail the test if your sins are forgiven do you?

How is that just? Can you give an example where forgiving sins or letting someone pass a test they failed is just?

[Murad]

Yes you can 'technically' 'pass' without Gods mercy (If your Good deeds outweigh your Bad deeds), but mans nature is to sin repeatedly, so its much more wise & noble to ask for forgiveness while doing good deeds.

So how many Muslims realistically pass the test this way? On estimate?

Im sure you dont expect an answer to a question like that.

You dont fail the test if your sins are forgiven do you?

How is that just? Can you give an example where forgiving sins or letting someone pass a test they failed is just?

Forgiving or 'Repentance' is not "letting someone pass a test". Since a sin is a "Transgression against God", God has the right to 'forgive & punish'. Do you agree?

Repentance & Forgiveness is a Good thing, both our religions preach it:

When Jesus sent forth messengers to proclaim his gospel, he commanded them to preach repentance (Luke 24:47; Mark 6:12). Teachings on repentance are found in the New Testament in Peter, (Acts 2:38); Paul, (Acts 20:21). God wants everyone to repent (2 Pet. 3:9; Acts 17:30). Indeed, failure on the part of man to heed God's call to repentance means that he shall utterly perish (Luke 13:3).

Christianity is based on Jesus' crucifixtion being a mercy for mankind, so why do you apply a double standard to Islam?

[Wootah]

So how many Muslims realistically pass the test this way? On estimate?

Im sure you dont expect an answer to a question like that.

I do want you to stick your neck out and claim a number but I don't mind if you don't.
I think the only defensible answer is zero. I think it is a worse result if the answer is greater than zero. The reason why self righteousness is undesirable or a worse result is:

1) A belief in self-righteousness is essentially narcissism: That one is worthy of heaven must surely be the pinnacle of a 'delusion of grandeur'. I think it is a claim to being a God. As you said, in Islam no one dies for anyone. There is no need to consider others in Islam, only yourself and your own self-righteousness. Even doing good and helping others is merely point scoring as the morality is removed from the person. Finally if one can achieve the same level of righteousness as God and earn their way into Heaven then why not just ask God for the power he has denied you and make you omnipotent as well. It's where the train of thought leads.

2) The reason why being self-righteous is concerning is because of what it means about God. It is like Groucho Marx said, "I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member." For man to meet God's standard would mean that God's standard was low. If God's standard was low then there is no reason to believe that God is eternally good, eternally faithful, etc. If God's standard of justice was achievable by humans then we would be equal to God in every moral way and I think we both hope God has higher standards than that.

Forgiving or 'Repentance' is not "letting someone pass a test". Since a sin is a "Transgression against God", God has the right to 'forgive & punish'. Do you agree?

A free willed being can do what it wishes. God is free willed and so can forgive or punish as he sees fit. However that does not make him just. How is God just if he forgives & punishes the same crime differently and more generally how is Allah just when he forgives and lets someone pass the test and doesn't forgive and fails someone else when they are much the same?

Repentance & Forgiveness is a Good thing, both our religions preach it:

That's not the question.

Christianity is based on Jesus' crucifixtion being a mercy for mankind, so why do you apply a double standard to Islam?

Stay on topic Murad. Let's pretend Christianity is false for this topic.

But the short answer is that the punishment is paid for and so justice is maintained. Since it was only possible for God to do this (to pay for our sins) then it is an act of mercy that he chose to. Hurrah!

ps: I might come back to the sealing of the heart as a metaphor response.