Is Kitzmiller the end of ID?

[juliod]

I've just finished reading the descision in Kitzmiller v Dover Area School Board. As a lot of people are discovering, it's a very interesting read. And very readable too, unexpectedly. I think it important for anyone interested in these debates to read it in it's entirety. It's 139 (short) pages (double spaced and wide margins).

I think it is critical for anyone who supports ID or creationism to read this decision. It is absolutely damning on ID, the leaders of the ID movement, and ID's supporters. If you don't read and digest the lessons of this case, you will walk right into the same wall.

One of the main findings of the judge is how fundementalist political movements evolve over time. Since about the 1920's they have consistently sought to enforce religion by legislation, with varying success. The judge traces this history through creationism, creation science, and now to "Intelligent Design".

Since this verdict will not be appealed (due to the diselection of the relevant school board members) the decision document will not be superceeded by higher court rulings. The analysis by this judge, and it is impressively comprehensive and thorough, will remain a major precedent.

An since ID is so thoroughly discredited in this case it seems likely to me that the fundementalists will discard it as a poltical ploy. What will be the next thing?

BTW, Creationists, fundementalists, and christians in general should read this document with great care. Strewn through it is words and phrases like "mendacious", "blatant lying", "untruthful", and as I'm sure you've read, "breathtaking inanity". Is this how a religion should be regarded?

DanZ

[Cathar1950]

I think we should start a thread.
Is Biblical Christianity(fundamentalist ) racist sexist and anti-semitic?
Of course it is. I guess it would be a short thread.

[jcrawford]

My concern is public education. What happens if people pull out of the educational system?

Then we can abolish most of the federal department of government education, and parents can use vouchers to send children to free schools of their choice.

Not that it has been much more then creating fodder for corporate America but Do we need a bunch of schools where kids are taught poorly or crazy ideas? Not that that is not going on in public education. It seems like our schools are nothing more then baby sitting prisons.

Worse than that. State schools are federally approved indoctrination centers where elite university's get to apply their latest Social Darwinist techniques of evolutionist psychology based on neo-Darwinist race theories of human descent from non-human or less-than-human common ancestors.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/ps/tee ... _state.htm

The rich can always afford good schools.

Given vouchers, the poor can afford "good schools" also.

Maybe I will go volunteer as a teachers aid or sub.. It is going to take time from my coffee and reading.

It may be worth the sacrifice though, since you will learn how racist and fascist the public school systems are.

[jcrawford]

Perhaps we can now understand the motive behind pathetic attempts at slandering evolution as being racist. Maybe this will be the next big thing

Hmmm. Interesting suggestion. A class action civil rights lawsuit consisting of a combination of substantiated complaints and charges against neo-Darwinist psychology, racism and fascism in public school system curriculums would be perfectly legal.

[Cephus]

I think we will still hear a few diehard "ID is real" types, but as it no longer serves the creationists goal of putting creationism in the class room, I think the next step (And we have already seen it in the making is "Teach the controversy."

But of course, there is no controversy, it's all in the heads of creationists. Evolution is the best defended theory in all of science. If you're going to toss out evolution on the basis of some farsical controversy, you have to toss out things like gravity which are even more controvertial within science.

It's all ridiculous on the face of it, but the creationists aren't going to give up. They'll lay low for a couple years and try it all again. Apparently they have the memory of a kumquat.

[micatala]

Hmmm. Interesting suggestion. A class action civil rights lawsuit consisting of a combination of substantiated complaints and charges against neo-Darwinist psychology, racism and fascism in public school system curriculums would be perfectly legal.

Please, file the legal papers at once! Don't delay!

I would love to see such a suit brought. Just as with the Kitzmiller case, we would quickly see how completely intellectually bankrupt and illogical the creationist camp is. I would love to see some of the arguments you have made on this forum brought into court. It would be truly entertaining, IMV, and would ultimately I think make an even louder thud hitting the ground than the Dover ID policy did.

My guess is it will never happen, because, IMHO, those who make accusations of racism, fascism, etc. against evolution know in their hearts that the arguments they make are rubbish, and they will never bring them in front of anything resembling an objective process for judgment because they know they will lose and look foolish.

[snappyanswer]

I think we should start a thread.
Is Biblical Christianity(fundamentalist ) racist sexist and anti-semitic?
Of course it is. I guess it would be a short thread.

Starting a thread with this kind of ignorance as its basis would not help out this website. Just the anti-semitic dribble is enough to hope better minds prevail, as a sect of Judaism that was started by Jews following the Jewsih Messiah is an interesting place to see the goofiness of "Biblical Christianity," being any of the above epithets.

[jcrawford]

I think we will still hear a few diehard "ID is real" types, but as it no longer serves the creationists goal of putting creationism in the class room, I think the next step (And we have already seen it in the making is "Teach the controversy."

But of course, there is no controversy, it's all in the heads of creationists.

There seems to be a lot of controversy amongst Christians over whether current neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution in Africa are racist or not, and whether schoolboard approved teachings of neo-Darwinism are a form of biological fascism foisted on the people by state governments.

If you're going to toss out evolution on the basis of some farsical controversy, you have to toss out things like gravity which are even more controvertial within science.

Controversial or not, Christians are grateful for Newton's God-given theory of gravity since it helps them keep both their feet and theology well grounded on the same planet Adam and Eve were created on even though some of us have been known to get spaced out on big bang theories which allow for neo-Darwinist race theories to sprout up in spacetime.

It's all ridiculous on the face of it, but the creationists aren't going to give up. They'll lay low for a couple years and try it all again. Apparently they have the memory of a kumquat.

At least we are related to kumquats in some memorable neo-Darwinist way.

[jcrawford]

Hmmm. Interesting suggestion. A class action civil rights lawsuit consisting of a combination of substantiated complaints and charges against neo-Darwinist psychology, racism and fascism in public school system curriculums would be perfectly legal.

Please, file the legal papers at once! Don't delay!

What's the rush? I've got to get all the Southern Christians and Baptists organized in support of their civil rights in the name of Dr. Martin Luther King and Christian freedom before we march into court. There are plenty of Baptist, Apostolic and Evangelical Churches up here in the North too which don't have much use for neo-Darwinist racial theories and pictures depicting so-called "primitive" African people evolving from monkey and ape ancestors once upon a time.

[McCulloch]

There seems to be a lot of controversy amongst Christians over whether current neo-Darwinist theories of human evolution in Africa are racist or not, and whether schoolboard approved teachings of neo-Darwinism are a form of biological fascism foisted on the people by state governments.

Really? Which other Christians are claiming that evolutionary science is racist? The only Christian I have seen on record to make the claim that human evolution is racist is JCrawford. Even the Christians who criticize human evolution, as far as I have seen, do not call it racist.

[jcrawford]

I think we should start a thread.
Is Biblical Christianity(fundamentalist ) racist sexist and anti-semitic?
Of course it is. I guess it would be a short thread.

Starting a thread with this kind of ignorance as its basis would not help out this website. Just the anti-semitic dribble is enough to hope better minds prevail, as a sect of Judaism that was started by Jews following the Jewsih Messiah is an interesting place to see the goofiness of "Biblical Christianity," being any of the above epithets.

Yes, the more neo-Darwinsts fulminate against the Bible and Bible-believing Christians, the more their deep-seated and deep-rooted religious presuppostitions and prejudices are revealed to the general public and human population at large. One doesn't hear of astrophysicists or NASA scientists disparaging the Bible or Bible-believing Christians the way believers in neo-Darwinism do on a regular and constistent basis. Do you think the fact that they trace their ancestral origins back to smaller brained primates has anything to do with their peculiar philosophy of life?