What's at stake?

[Elijah John]

Assuming that Jesus is not God, there seems to be a clear violation of the first commandment, that we are to have "no other gods before me (YHVH)".

What is at stake here, how serious an infraction of God's primary law is worshiping Jesus?

Does the gravity of this situation make those who worship Jesus more biased in favor of keeping Jesus as their God and the object of their worship, rather than opening themselves to evidence of the contrary?

Two or three things occur to me, that I will share after some replies.

I think that most Evangelicals swear that those who DO NOT worship Jesus spend eternity in hell...pretty high stakes.

But what if they are wrong, what if the reverse is true, what if there is punishment FOR worshiping Jesus, if he is NOT God? What then are the stakes, if worshiping Jesus is indeed a form of idolatry?

[Wordleymaster1]

The only thing at stake is the person's belief itself. Not everyone one agrees that Jesus is not God while saying they are Christian. This doesn't effect me really, but it would likely effect them depending on their personal beliefs.
So what's at stake? We can't tell because it all depends on the individual's belief and what they hold dear.
It's all relative

[Divine Insight]

And and your observations here touch on something I alluded to in the OP that I was hoping to cover. That God (YHVH) may well be compassionate enough, intelligent enough and big enough to allow for some misunderstandings from His creatures, without consigning them to everlasting torture.

But see, there you go right there Elijah. You are demanding that God is the egotistical jealous "YHVH" of Hebrew Mythology. You may as well have said, "That God (Zeus), blah, blah, blah.

You are the one who won't let go of a very specific egotistical jealous Godhead.

If God judges on belief, getting the right belief is paramount.

And surely you can see how utterly absurd that would be? Yet this is precisely what a "jealous God" must do. Because that's whole foundation for the jealously. And jealousy is the bottom line for YHVH. It's right in the Ten Commandments of the Hebrew mythology.

If God however judges on behavior and attitudes, then that allows for more leeway in His judgements, and any sincere, loving and compassionate Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Christian, Deist or Atheist for that matter, could be covered and judged "saved".

And that would not be YHVH because those kinds of beliefs are considered blaspheme against YHVH because they don't recognize YHVH and his commandments, etc.

But if the "right belief" Fundamentalists are right, God sends those with mistaken beliefs to hell.

But that kind of a God would not be a righteous God. All that would be is a supernatural all-powerful extremely sick psychopath. A Demon to be sure. You may see this point as being a "rant", but from my perspective it's the TRUTH.

But that all depends on Jesus supposedly being God. If they are wrong about that, and God DOES judge by correct belief, could they themselves (the Fundamentalists) be in peril of everlasting torture? Wouldn't that then, according to Fundamentalist own standards, be a major violation of the first commandment, putting Jesus before God, and thus guilty of the sin of idolatry?

You are basically claiming that the New Testament is filled with lies.

John.3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John.5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John.14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


And there are many more places in the NT where this sort of rhetoric is claimed. Now you may point out that the NT also contains many contradictions to these claims as well, but all that shows is that overall the fables aren't consistent.

You keep calling yourself a "Christian Deist" but clearly you don't believe in Christianity at all. You basically just reject out-of-hand anything you don't want to believe and cling only to the parts that you would like to be true. And I hope you don't take this as a personal comment because it's just a fact based upon what you have been posting ever since you joined this forum.

Oh, for the record, I DO revere the teachings of the man Jesus, the very human prophet.

Well, no wonder, you toss what you don't like out. What about John 14:6 that has Jesus specifically claiming that no one comes unto the father but by him?

If you believe that's blaspheme against YHVH then you must believe that Jesus himself was guilty of blaspheme. Either that, or you just reject out-of-hand anything attributed to Jesus that you don't personally care for.

And questioning his Divinity does not mean I respect his teachings any less. I do NOT believe that the historical, the real Jesus ever claimed to be God, so that is not one of his teachings as far as I can see.

Whether he claimed to be God is irrelevant. He clearly claimed that no man come unto the Father but by him. That's putting himself before YHVH in terms of being important to your salvation.

But nothing I said here indicates that I consider him to be God Himself. I do not.

It doesn't matter whether Jesus is God. According to Christian mythology all judgment has been given to Jesus and the only way to get to the Father is through Jesus. If you are praying directly to YHVH instead of through Jesus then you are rejecting the NT Gospels. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: So for all intents and purposes you need to appease Jesus not YHVH. Because Jesus is now the judge. That's the ideal behind Christianity. They stole the religion away from the God of the Jews and gave Jesus the ultimate authority now.

Clearly you do not like Christianity. So I'm really at a loss as to why you insist on calling yourself a "Christian Deist". Even if Jesus was a human prophet divinely inspired by YHVH it should be clear that YHVH gave this human prophet the ultimate authority to judge you and decide the fate of your eternal soul.

So Jesus becomes your "Personal God" even if he's not the original creator of the universe.

Also, since Jesus is so close to God, perhaps the misunderstanding is understandable that one would mistake him for YHVH.

It doesn't matter whether Jesus is YHVH. The bottom line in Christianity is that you can't get to YHVH except though Jesus. Jesus is the SON of God. The Christians don't even need to claim anymore than this. As the SON of God Jesus has been given the ultimate authority to judge humans. John 5:22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. Therefore it's Jesus you must appease.

Jesus become the focal point of your "worship" and YHVH takes a back seat in Christianity. That doesn't mean that Jesus has to be YHVH.

In fact, I even point out that Christianity is a fairytale where God must have gotten tired of his human pets so he handed the entire planet Earth over to his son as a gift. Jesus has now become the God of humans. Like it or not.

That's what you must accept if you're going to embrace Christianity.

Otherwise, you may as well become a Jew or Muslim if you would rather worship YHVH instead.

How can you claim to be a "Christian Deist" and sit around and complain that Jesus is the Christ. The only way to the Father?

That's the bottom line in Christianity. Jesus is the new egotist in Christianity. Like it or not. If you fail to pacify the ego of Jesus you're doomed because according to Christianity, the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

Jesus is now that judge. That's what Christianity claims to be TRUTH.

Because remember in Christianity Jesus is the TRUTH, and Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

So you better watch out
you better not cry
you better not pout
I'm telling you why
Jesus Christ is coming
to Judge.

That's the Christian fairytale.

He's coming soon to a Cloud near you!

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Now I will preface this by saying the question you posed is much more open ended than Pascals wager and I said similar but that does not mean the same.

The wager as posed by Jesus worship

If Jesus is god and Jesus worship is required to avoid hell then the safe bet is on Jesus worship.

If Jesus is not god and Jesus worship will send you to hell then the safe bet is on not worshiping Jesus.

That's how it came across anyways and a little bit more open ended as you don't draw any conclusions yourself but that is the best way I can sum up my thoughts on the matter.

Pascal's wager however, gets the benefit of a win win. The scenario you present is win/lose as either can be right and both sides have something to lose.

Anyways take it with a grain of salt, thats just my opinion on the matter and what do I know?

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The First Post asks an interesting question. Isn't the answer the response of Judaism? One can even find verses in the NT that suggest Jesus denied being God. Confusion about who Jesus was seems most understandable considering both the texts of the Bible and hundreds if not thousands of different organizations or denominations that have varying assessments of his nature. I agree with others, that it has always seemed odd to me that one should be punished simply for honestly coming to the 'wrong' conclusion about a point of doctrine, particularly a disputed one.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Now I will preface this by saying the question you posed is much more open ended than Pascals wager and I said similar but that does not mean the same.

The wager as posed by Jesus worship

If Jesus is god and Jesus worship is required to avoid hell then the safe bet is on Jesus worship.

If Jesus is not god and Jesus worship will send you to hell then the safe bet is on not worshiping Jesus.

That's how it came across anyways and a little bit more open ended as you don't draw any conclusions yourself but that is the best way I can sum up my thoughts on the matter.

Pascal's wager however, gets the benefit of a win win. The scenario you present is win/lose as either can be right and both sides have something to lose.

Anyways take it with a grain of salt, thats just my opinion on the matter and what do I know?

Plenty. Thanks for the clarification Dan. I see both the similarities of the OP with a modified form of Pascal's wager, as well as some differences.

Your right, either way, one side has something to gain, and one side to lose. And vice versa.

But it is not a win-win, UNLESS YHVH is far more lenient applying sanctions for idolatry then the first commandment seems to imply. And if Jesus is NOT God, and YHVH does condemn for wrong belief..it seems that traditional Christians have backed the wrong horse, so to speak.

They get around this by saying that Jesus IS Jehovah. But I sure don't see it in any of their proof verses.

But personally, as I stated before, but not in the OP, I believe God judges on behavior and attitudes, as opposed to "correct" belief. If that is the case, then it seems that folks on either side of the argument are safe.

That is as long as one seeks the Good, tries to practice it as a way of life. And conversely unless the "right belief" folks think their right belief will shield them and can do whaterver the heck they please.

I personally do not know many folks like that, and in my experience most are people of good will and mean well.

Of course there are horrid and atrocious exceptions, as the headlines prove.

[1213]

What is at stake here, how serious an infraction of God's primary law is worshiping Jesus?

I think it is not necessary very bad, because Jesus is son of God, and what you do to him, you do for his Father, because it is said in Bible that:

Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me."
John 13:20

The King will answer them, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
Matt. 25:40

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

The First Post asks an interesting question. Isn't the answer the response of Judaism? One can even find verses in the NT that suggest Jesus denied being God. Confusion about who Jesus was seems most understandable considering both the texts of the Bible and hundreds if not thousands of different organizations or denominations that have varying assessments of his nature. I agree with others, that it has always seemed odd to me that one should be punished simply for honestly coming to the 'wrong' conclusion about a point of doctrine, particularly a disputed one.

Modern Rabbinic Judaism, yes, but as historical Judaism predates Christianity, it cannot be a response, but either or both are an antidote.

But both modern and ancient Judaism seem to advocate right behavior over "right" belief, and the Oneness of God, and the prohibition of worshiping anyone or anything before God.

And in Judaism, no one is tortured forever for making the "wrong" choice.

I agree, with all the differing opinions about the nature of Jesus, misunderstanding is certainly easy to comprehend, and an easy mistake to make, either way. And if we humans can see this, I bet God certainly can and does too.

As I said before, (and I think you would agree Danmark) that for every verse in John or Paul's writing that seem to support Jesus' Divinity, even THEY provide verses that indicate the opposite, that he was completely human.

[Divine Insight]

I agree, with all the differing opinions about the nature of Jesus, misunderstanding is certainly easy to comprehend, and an easy mistake to make, either way. And if we humans can see this, I bet God certainly can and does too.

If that's true, then why didn't God himself nip it in the bud?

Why would this God allow a myriad of disagreeing religions to emerge that do nothing but serve to confuse people and set people at odds with each other in HIS NAME.

As I said before, (and I think you would agree Danmark) that for every verse in John or Paul's writing that seem to support Jesus' Divinity, even THEY provide verses that indicate the opposite, that he was completely human.

So why continue to hold these conflicting stories up as having anything to do with "God" then?

All you've just done here is give us reasons for becoming atheists, at least with respect to these deeply contradictory stories about YHVH and Jesus.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

If Jesus isnt god then they haven't violated the comman about putting no gods before him

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

If Jesus isnt god then they haven't violated the comman about putting no gods before him

That's a very good point. In fact, the same would be true of the Canaanites. If Baal wasn't God then the Canaanites didn't put any God before YHVH either.