If the shroud of Turin proves the Christian Bible......

[Athetotheist]

In another thread which I've mentioned elsewhere, it's conceded that the Christian Bible is not inerrant and contains inconsistencies. It's argued, however, that those errors don't matter, that the Christian Bible should be believed even though it isn't consistently believable because.....the shroud of Turin! A Jesus-like image on a piece of linen is supposed to overrule all the critical objections to the problematic narrative and make it A-okay for Christianity's founding texts to be as inconsistent and error-ridden as Christian apologists assume the texts of other religions to be.

If the shroud of Turin can be regarded as proof of Christianity, why can't quantum mechanics be regarded as proof of Hinduism?


"For example, it allowed electrons to tunnel through walls, particles to exist simultaneously in two places at once, black holes to evaporate, and information to be exchanged between observers faster than light.

"This was a crucial moment in history, when physics was in a state of major upheaval. The familiar classical picture of reality was being disrupted by one that seemed to be too crazy to be true, even as it explained numerous experimental observations that the former could not. Einstein, Bohr, Schrödinger, Heisenberg and others were deeply troubled by its implications. Indeed, they were faced with a personal dilemma: to believe a preposterous theory that worked or discard it for an intuitive theory that didn’t work.

"At this critical juncture, they discovered that their notion, that the world we see is not reality itself but a projection onto our consciousness, wasn’t completely new. In the ancient Indian texts known as the Upanishads, they found echoes of their theories, and a philosophical foundation to ensure they would no longer be cast adrift by the implications of quantum mechanics."

https://science.thewire.in/society/hist ... panishads/


"The Vedas support the concept of Brahman as an enormous field that constitutes the true reality of the universe and is not divided into objects with larger or smaller dimensions, but remains what is at the basis of reality, namely reality itself - even though it manifests itself in each and every form and object of the visible universe.

"It is without dimensions and basically coincides with the concept of quantum nonlocality: it is a concept of God very different from that of other religions, especially those based on the Torah, the Koran, and the Bible, but in effect it is not even far from it. In Brahman there are all the planes of existence: divine, human, and infinite others that are superior and inferior to the human plane. These are considered illusory, nevertheless they are experienced as real for the living beings that inhabit them."

https://www.ancient-origins.net/artifac ... cs-0013945


If the holes in the Christian narrative can be swept under a piece of cloth bearing a faint image, and a questionable image at that, why can't the findings of QM be assumed to validate an Eastern concept of the universe----without those troublesome Biblical contradictions to deal with?

[TRANSPONDER]

But I'm addressing your point. If the evidence of the Shroud can be considered inexplicable without it being the image of a crucified man (and doubts aside, I can't easily explain it otherwise) that is not on a par with using Quantim, indeterminacy or the Holographic universe to validate Hinduism or any other religion. The two things simply are not comparable.,

And I do not think very highly of playing the 'off topic' or "My Thread" cards to try to stifle debate or dissent.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #1

But I'm addressing your point. If the evidence of the Shroud can be considered inexplicable without it being the image of a crucified man (and doubts aside, I can't easily explain it otherwise) that is not on a par with using Quantim, indeterminacy or the Holographic universe to validate Hinduism or any other religion. The two things simply are not comparable.,

"In the ancient Indian texts known as the Upanishads, they found echoes of their theories, and a philosophical foundation to ensure they would no longer be cast adrift by the implications of quantum mechanics."

If the Turin cloth can be considered evidence of Christianity, then the "echoes" of quantum theory in the Upanishads can be considered evidence of Hinduism.

That's the comparison.

And I do not think very highly of playing the 'off topic' or "My Thread" cards to try to stifle debate or dissent.

"Debate Forum Rules.....
#4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread."

That's the card I'm playing.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #1

But I'm addressing your point. If the evidence of the Shroud can be considered inexplicable without it being the image of a crucified man (and doubts aside, I can't easily explain it otherwise) that is not on a par with using Quantim, indeterminacy or the Holographic universe to validate Hinduism or any other religion. The two things simply are not comparable.,

"In the ancient Indian texts known as the Upanishads, they found echoes of their theories, and a philosophical foundation to ensure they would no longer be cast adrift by the implications of quantum mechanics."

If the Turin cloth can be considered evidence of Christianity, then the "echoes" of quantum theory in the Upanishads can be considered evidence of Hinduism.

That's the comparison.

And I do not think very highly of playing the 'off topic' or "My Thread" cards to try to stifle debate or dissent.

"Debate Forum Rules.....
#4. Stay on the topic of debate. If a topic brings up another issue, start another thread."

That's the card I'm playing.

I am not bringing up another debate. I am addressing yours - Just because the Turin Shroud Turin leads to a conclusion about what it is (or is not), it noes NOT follow that Quantum mechanics leads to a conclusion about Hinduism, nor for that matter, any other religion. The two arguments are unrelated.

I might argue that you have no valid reply to that other than try to play the 'off topic' card, which I refute.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #13

I might argue that you have no valid reply to that other than try to play the 'off topic' card, which I refute.

You haven't refuted anything. All you've done is fail to grasp the compatibility of quantum phenomena with an Eastern concept of the universe.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #13

I might argue that you have no valid reply to that other than try to play the 'off topic' card, which I refute.

You haven't refuted anything. All you've done is fail to grasp the compatibility of quantum phenomena with an Eastern concept of the universe.

You have explained your point very well. I'm saying that examination of an object that is clearly directly related to the claimed resurrection event is not a validation of quantum theory being used to support Hinduism in particular, any more than for any particular supernatural or religious claim.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #15

You have explained your point very well. I'm saying that examination of an object that is clearly directly related to the claimed resurrection event is not a validation of quantum theory being used to support Hinduism in particular, any more than for any particular supernatural or religious claim.

If an object is supposed to be related to a supposed event, we have to look at how strong the relation is. In this context, it isn't so much about the Turin cloth supporting the Christian Bible----it's about the Christian Bible supporting the Turin cloth, which it doesn't. The inconsistencies in the Jesus narrative do not lead to the conclusion that the image on the cloth is that of a supernaturally resurrected Jesus. And if the text doesn't point to the cloth, then the cloth doesn't point to the text either.

Eastern cosmology and quantum phenomena may not be overtly connected, but at least they're compatible.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #15

You have explained your point very well. I'm saying that examination of an object that is clearly directly related to the claimed resurrection event is not a validation of quantum theory being used to support Hinduism in particular, any more than for any particular supernatural or religious claim.

If an object is supposed to be related to a supposed event, we have to look at how strong the relation is. In this context, it isn't so much about the Turin cloth supporting the Christian Bible----it's about the Christian Bible supporting the Turin cloth, which it doesn't. The inconsistencies in the Jesus narrative do not lead to the conclusion that the image on the cloth is that of a supernaturally resurrected Jesus. And if the text doesn't point to the cloth, then the cloth doesn't point to the text either.

Eastern cosmology and quantum phenomena may not be overtly connected, but at least they're compatible.

But the two kinds of arguments are not like in terms of obvious relevance. Shroud to Bible or Bible to shroud, they relate one to the other and no question. Quantum is not obviously related to Hinduism unless someone with a thing about it wants to drag it into the discussion. I might say that Buddhism or Taoism or the Jungian archetype has more relevance. They certainly have nothing to do with the Shroud. That very specifically is a discussion about Christianity.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #17

But the two kinds of arguments are not like in terms of obvious relevance. Shroud to Bible or Bible to shroud, they relate one to the other and no question. Quantum is not obviously related to Hinduism unless someone with a thing about it wants to drag it into the discussion. I might say that Buddhism or Taoism or the Jungian archetype has more relevance. They certainly have nothing to do with the Shroud. That very specifically is a discussion about Christianity.

A compatible Eastern philosophy and quantum world is a closer match than an incompatible Turin cloth and Christian Bible.

[TRANSPONDER]

That's not the point- it is that the Turin shroud relates (true or not) to the gospel account of the crucifixion of Jesus. The matter of Quantum physics does in any obvious way relate to Hinduism, eve if one could argue some kind of connection through impalpable matter or the uncertainty of indeterminacy. No more, in fact, than any other religious or paranormal claim

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to TRANSPONDER in post #19

That's not the point- it is that the Turin shroud relates (true or not) to the gospel account of the crucifixion of Jesus.

The crucifixion account is one thing; the resurrection account is another. The resurrection of Jesus is a claim. Quantum phenomena are observable.