Atheists and free speech?

[historia]

Every year, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression (FIRE) does a survey to gauge the climate of free speech on American college campuses. The raw data and the report for 2023 were recently released.

Consider the responses to this question, broken down by religious affiliation:



Question for debate: Why do you think that atheist and agnostic college students are the most likely (and considerably higher than Christians) to think it is okay to shout down speakers they disagree with?

[TRANSPONDER]

...
I can only too easily see how you view it. A secularist authoritarianism to stifle any questioning of the dogma. Problem is, I see much more of that in religious fundamentalist countries than in secularist ones. Don't you?

I don't know any Christian fundamentalist country.

Fortunately, it looks like remaining that way.

[1213]

...
I can only too easily see how you view it. A secularist authoritarianism to stifle any questioning of the dogma. Problem is, I see much more of that in religious fundamentalist countries than in secularist ones. Don't you?

I don't know any Christian fundamentalist country.

Fortunately....

Why do you think so? It seems to me that secularist countries are tyrannical and evil. Country that would live by Jesus teachings would in my opinion be much better.

[TRANSPONDER]

...
I can only too easily see how you view it. A secularist authoritarianism to stifle any questioning of the dogma. Problem is, I see much more of that in religious fundamentalist countries than in secularist ones. Don't you?

I don't know any Christian fundamentalist country.

Fortunately....

Why do you think so? It seems to me that secularist countries are tyrannical and evil. Country that would live by Jesus teachings would in my opinion be much better.

While i might contend that secularist moral codes might be better, the problem with Christian fundamentalism is that it doesn't look at all like Jesus, but like everything he was criticizing, and that's without getting into the anti - scientific cult, the gimme that old time revision of rights and the control of thoughts, and that's even before we get to the political ramifications of politicized Christianity and the way it is hi - jacked by the greedy and unscrupulous.

You may protest that such is not your kind of Christianity, but it is theirs. I might propose that IF you oppose the threat of Christian fundamentalist temporal power, your real home is with the atheists in a secularist society where you can believe and preach what you like, and nobody with differing creeds can stop you, just as nobody could stop me arguing with the Creed, which would not be allowed in a Christian theocratic state.

"Then they came for me, and there was nobody left to speak up for me".

Separation of church and state and a secularist society means rights for all, including you.

[1213]

...your real home is with the atheists in a secularist society where you can believe and preach what you like, and nobody with differing creeds can stop you...

I think the opposite is true, as also the opening post indicates.

[TRANSPONDER]

...your real home is with the atheists in a secularist society where you can believe and preach what you like, and nobody with differing creeds can stop you...

I think the opposite is true, as also the opening post indicates.

You misunderstand. I did not say a Atheist society but a secularist one. Let me clarify. Humanism is a secularist - based society whether one is religious or not because it keeps religion out of it. Atheists are in there with Christians who respect church and State. It means no one denomination gets to impose how we live which is what Theocracy does. When you pick and choose the kind of Christianity you follow, a non religious society that lets you do so is what you need, not a Theocracy that persecutes you for heresy.

I'm still puzzled by that chart. Free speech without being howled down is what atheists should want, so I don't understand who those atheists are who seem to disagree. They must know how atheism could be silenced if religion was able to shout atheists down.

[1213]

...your real home is with the atheists in a secularist society where you can believe and preach what you like, and nobody with differing creeds can stop you...

I think the opposite is true, as also the opening post indicates.

You misunderstand. I did not say a Atheist society but a secularist one.

Interesting, by what I see, secular means nonreligious and religion is removed.

....Theocracy does. When you pick and choose the kind of Christianity you follow, a non religious society that lets you do so is what you need, not a Theocracy that persecutes you for heresy.
....

By what I see, it was theocracy that allowed secularism and people to be free.

[TRANSPONDER]

...your real home is with the atheists in a secularist society where you can believe and preach what you like, and nobody with differing creeds can stop you...

I think the opposite is true, as also the opening post indicates.

You misunderstand. I did not say a Atheist society but a secularist one.

Interesting, by what I see, secular means nonreligious and religion is removed.

Let me see if the quoting is done right; is it? Humanism means nonreligious in the way a society is run, not that religion is banned. The religious can be humanist (in fact the US constitution is a humanist one) because it gives rights to all religions, not just one.

....Theocracy does. When you pick and choose the kind of Christianity you follow, a non religious society that lets you do so is what you need, not a Theocracy that persecutes you for heresy.
....

By what I see, it was theocracy that allowed secularism and people to be free.

By what I see it was increasing humanism that allowed that. Religion did not. Instead, historically, it persecuted and fought holy wars and crusades with people of other religions. In Theocratic states today other religions do not have the same rights, even if they are grudgingly permitted to believe and worship.

[historia]

Now that religious claims are believed less and less, we have more humans picking another group to identify with (often political). It seems pretty simple. Just humans doing what humans do. Religion or the lack there of has little to do with it IMO.

I appreciate this point, and don't necessarily disagree.

But if this is just "humans doing what humans do," it's not clear why atheists -- who, after all, aren't supposed to have anything in common other than not believing in God -- wouldn't land somewhere in the middle of the survey results.

Consider also Data's point above:

In over the last 30 years I've read and discussed the opinions of atheists and find them to be far more likely to support free speech than theists.

Or recent comments about this survey from David Silverman, the former head of American Atheists:

[FIRE] just published a poll a little while ago saying that atheists are the worst when it comes to shouting down opponents so they can't speak. That's shameful! That's disgusting! We're the ones who are supposed to be skeptical, and we're the worst at being skeptical!

Given that, is it not in some ways surprising that, of all the groups, atheist college students are the most likely to shun free speech?

[Data]

Consider also Data's point above:

In over the last 30 years I've read and discussed the opinions of atheists and find them to be far more likely to support free speech than theists.

Or recent comments about this survey from David Silverman, the former head of American Atheists:

[FIRE] just published a poll a little while ago saying that atheists are the worst when it comes to shouting down opponents so they can't speak. That's shameful! That's disgusting! We're the ones who are supposed to be skeptical, and we're the worst at being skeptical!

Given that, is it not in some ways surprising that, of all the groups, atheist college students are the most likely to shun free speech?

I think it has drastically changed in the last 5 years and I think it has more to do with politics than religion. Christians tend to by conservative and atheists tend to be liberals. Republican and Democrat respectively. It's sort of like the old WWF. Wrestlers play the bad guy for a while then switch to the good guy. It's all show. One thing for sure is that the noise you see on legacy media isn't necessarily a reflection of reality.

[Clownboat]

Now that religious claims are believed less and less, we have more humans picking another group to identify with (often political). It seems pretty simple. Just humans doing what humans do. Religion or the lack there of has little to do with it IMO.

I appreciate this point, and don't necessarily disagree.

But if this is just "humans doing what humans do," it's not clear why atheists -- who, after all, aren't supposed to have anything in common other than not believing in God -- wouldn't land somewhere in the middle of the survey results.

Consider also Data's point above:

In over the last 30 years I've read and discussed the opinions of atheists and find them to be far more likely to support free speech than theists.

Or recent comments about this survey from David Silverman, the former head of American Atheists:

[FIRE] just published a poll a little while ago saying that atheists are the worst when it comes to shouting down opponents so they can't speak. That's shameful! That's disgusting! We're the ones who are supposed to be skeptical, and we're the worst at being skeptical!

Given that, is it not in some ways surprising that, of all the groups, atheist college students are the most likely to shun free speech?

Imagine Suzy who is heavily involved in her church community. Now Suzy has lost her religious beliefs (for whatever reason) and has lost her group she has belonged to and is now by definition an atheist. When Suzy and those like her choose to belong to a shouting down political group, said group has increased their numbers and by default, these said people are atheists for having just lost their religious group they are replacing.

The population of shouting down groups is growing as people leave their religious groups and join a political group. People that remain involved with their religious community for example would not be seeking groups that may shout down others, so this leaves only atheists in this scenario that are bolstering shouting down groups. I believe it is the replacing of a community to belong to that is increasing the numbers, not that atheists are prone to shouting down others anymore than the next human.