Being Born Again Spiritually.

[hiramabbi2]

Not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless your born again spiritually.

Surely, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning and a liar was not created in the image or likeness of God. He was just a natural living soul without the Spirit of God.

In the day Adam & Eve were created in their image and likeness, Cain had already killed Abel. Gen. 5:1-3 Cross Gen. 1:26-27

Do you agree?

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

This is shaping up to be an interesting discussion IMO.

I can certainly understand your position, but there are several Scriptural contradictions to your understanding. The first is that Gen. 2:18 shows that Adam was ALONE before the animals and birds, which were formed from the Ground, were made at the beginning of the 6th Day. The traditional view, that Adam was formed AFTER the creatures were formed from the ground, at the beginning of the 6th Day, contradicts Gen. 2:18-20.

First, you never responded to my comments on 1 Corinthians 15...did you agree?

Anyways, let's look at the Scripture to determine if we can figure out if God created animals or man first.

Genesis 1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.

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Genesis 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth [2] and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth [3] and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams [4] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
...
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.

First off, I believe we can both agree that Genesis 2 does not give the same account as Genesis 1. Genesis 1 lays out the 6-day creation in chronological order in a basic outline form and speaks specifically of God *creating* animals. Genesis 2 is in topical order(not chronological order) and lays out the details of events on the sixth day surrounding the creation of man specifically. It presupposes the order of the creation given in Genesis 1. Genesis 2 is built on the foundation of Genesis 1.

Genesis 2:18-19 speak nothing of the chronology of the creation of man or animals - it just tells us that the animals were formed before being brought before Adam. Again I believe your use of the KJV, in these verese creates confusion because it does not consider the context and tense of the word yatsar which means "formed." Genesis 1 never speaks of animals being created after Adam and Eve. Your entire case rests on the KJV translation of the word yatsar and its tense. Since Genesis 2 presupposes Genesis 1's chronology, we must accept Genesis 1's account that animals were created, then Adam and Eve. Genesis 2 goes into further detail on the sixth day by showing us that prior to Eve's creation, God presented Adam with all the animals he had formed to be named and also to show Adam that no animal was suitable for him (infering to Adam that bestiality is wrong).

Again, translation and context is everything.

Another contradiction is that you believe that Adam lost his Spiritual Life when he sinned. This is in contradiction to Scripture and seems to show that the Godhead made a mistake in Creating him Spiritually in the first place.

No one dies Spiritually for if they could, then God would have made a mistake. Those who are born of the Spirit are alive forevermore, Eternally.

I think you're misunderstanding me because it's not a contradiction. It seems to me you're trying to imply that it was a mistake for God to create Adam and Eve with free will. Adam and Eve were created with free will, but without sin - therefore they were made in God's righteous and holy image. God's creation was GOOD. By God's standard of creation, Good = Perfect. Now both Adam and Eve had a human spirit - your spirit is who you are...your "self" or your "I". In this context, the spirit is often interchangably called "soul." All people have a spirit - even those who are not "born again."

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

We all have a spirit. However our spirit is naturally inclined to do evil because of Adam's sin to sever his relationship with God. I already said I don't consider this "spiritual death", but rather "spiritual insanity." Adam's sin made him morally independent from God, therefore morally insane.

We must be born again to reestablish our relationship with God. We do this through faith in Christ and baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is how we regain the righteous and holy image of Christ. The Holy Spirit comes to dwell within our spirit. We submit our "self" over to Christ and bind our will to His Law.

2 Corinthians 5:16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

Adam was formed physically, on the 3rd Day, After the 1st Earth and the other Heavens, but Before the plants and herbs of the 3rd Day. This would give Adam and mankind pre-eminence to every other created being. It explains why Adam was Alone, at the beginning of the 6th Day, and named the creatures formed from the Ground, by the hands of Jesus.

When Adam was told that he would DIE in the Day, that he disobeyed, it was BEFORE Eve was formed. Adam did not die physically, within 24 hours, and could not have died Spiritually, because he was not Created Spiritually until AFTER Eve was formed. Gen. 1:27 and Gen. 5:1-2 show that Adam was Created, at the SAME time when Eve was Created.

I also believe that Adam did die, PHYSICALLY, in the Day, that he sinned. Adam and all other mankind, will Die, physically, on this present 6th Creative Day of God. Those who are Born Spiritually will Never Die.

This is a very radical eisegesis of Scripture. It undermines the chronological account given in Genesis 1. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that tells us Adam was created on the third day. Genesis 2 is a detailed account of the sixth day. The KJV creates confusion due to it's mistranslation of the tense of the word yatsar.
Furthermore, if you believe we're still in the "Creative Day of God", the Sixth Day, I believe you have also undermined the Sabbath Day - God's rest after the creation.

[Arch]

It's amazing how Atheist' could come up with distorted premises creating fallacious argument for themselves!!!

First off you need to check your assumptions; most religious people are always speaking on that which they know not. Once again one puts his or her foot in his or her overly righteous mouth.

I am not an Atheist

Now that we have that established, let get into the other statements

They don't even believe the Bible to begin with yet, they are looking for an answer that's written in the Scripture!??? How convenient, isn't it?

Hiramabbi since YOU believe in the bible and base YOUR beliefs and statements on it YOU should be able to prove what you say in it. That's quite a logical assumption for anyone to make christian or not. If YOU can't maybe YOU should either keep those statements to YOURSELF or not present them as the emphatic truth.

Here's the deal Arch, if I show you the proof in the Bible that directly alludes to Cain being the devil, from the beginning, are going repent and become a Christian? I don't think so - would that be a fair assumption, Arch? :

First off!
Something alluding to something isn't proof.

Secondly!
By biblical and christian standards it is you who needs to repent not I;
for one you just made a false witness against your neighbor..(ie me). In laymen's terms you lied on me... because I am not an Atheist or maybe you were just alluding to that..

Thirdly!

You are adding to the scriptures which is prohibited by the bible itself; also you coming to your own private interpretations which is also spoken against in the bible..... THE BIBLE IS NOT GIVEN TO ANY PRIVATE INTERPRETATION

Its funny how you debase and act as if you don't believe your own bible, but get upset when others do the same. It seems that the bible is only valid if it fits your own twisted interpretations and beliefs. As you say HOW CONVENIENT!

So then, what kind of discussion or argument are you looking for that will bind you to a certain parameter? Please educate us.

Did upon entering this site, you happen to read what the format of it was. Let me point it out for you.

Debating Christianity and Religion
Civil and engaging debate on Christianity and religious issues

This site is for debating religions, interpretations and ideologies. If you can't address the topic or questions being presented by others you are in the wrong place.

Once again this is the second time you have responded to me without addressing the statement I made. I have to take this as your inablity to deal intellectually with the responses I have made.

Futhermore, your asking me why I want an answer is not going to distract anyone including myself from that fact that you are simply dodging responding to my statements and questions.

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

Even the prophets and the saints were all unrighteous sinners who were born again - baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Show me one quote in the Old Testament that shows a prophet being baptized or born again for that matter. In fact show me one quote that speaks on the concept of being born again at all in the Old Testament.

I should try to clarify here because I think I mispoke when I went so far as to say that the prophets were "born again." To be "born again" does signify that we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. John 7:39 tells us this did not occur prior to Christ. The work of the Holy Spirit within the prophets of the OT was different than the work He does today. God's chosen people in the OT were certainly filled with the Spirit however:

Exodus 31:2 "See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts- 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze,

Micah 3:8 But as for me, I am filled with power, with the Spirit of the LORD , and with justice and might, to declare to Jacob his transgression, to Israel his sin.

----
Likewise in the NT:

Acts 2:4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Ephesians 5:18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit.

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Now I shouldn't have gone so far to equate the OT ministry of the Holy Spirit with the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" which signifies the indwelling of the Spirit spoken specifically:

1 Corinthians 12:13For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Ephesians 2:22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

cf. John 3:3-8

My point to hiramabbi2 was that even the prophets and saints were by nature sinful and that their spirit had to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But I shouldn't have gone so far to equate the baptism of the Holy Spirit (indwelling) with the work of the Spirit in OT believers.

Genesis 5:3 tells us Seth was made in Adam's image and likeness - which would be the imperfect, unrighteous nature of man after becoming independent from God.

Genesis 5:3 says; And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth: . Image means resemblance… this simply could mean he looked like him and had his same mannerism or teachings or beliefs.

Nothing here states anything about original sin and independent unrighteous natures.

Have you people read the penalty of adding to the bible? It is serious that is if you believe in the bible.

I believe the contrast between Gen 1:26 and Gen 5:3 is significant.

Moses tells us:
"27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them. "

but he also tells us"

"3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth. "

God's image is perfect. Adam's image is imperfect due to sin. What would be the point of Moses telling us that Seth was made in Adam's image, rather than telling us that he was in God's image...or say anything of Seth's image at all?? I believe Moses did this because he wanted to make a point to show us that man's image had been affected by the Fall - it is no longer righteous and holy. I think of "image" synonomous with "nature." When Adam and Eve were created, they were perfectly Good. Therefore it is said they were in the image of God - perfectly Good. They lost that when they sinned. Additionally, I believe there is a difference between "likeness" and "image." If it wasn't, Genesis 5:3 is redundant.

Given the contrast between Gen 1:26 and Gen 5:3, coupled with many other verses in Scripture, which are very clear that man has a sinful nature (which I posted in my previous reply), we can conclude that original sin was the origin of our sinful nature. Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. What is the knowledge of good and evil? It is MORALITY. Adam and Eve became morally independent from God. Becoming morally independent is very significant because it immediately implies that we don't need God to show us how we ought to live! That is the *choice* Adam and Eve made - they wanted God's knowledge so they wouldn't need Him. They got what they wanted. Unfortunately, the ramification of this independence/separation is imperfection - a sinful nature. Human beings (prior to being born again) are egoistic. They live according to self-interest, rather than by love for God and love for neighbor. If we were loving by nature, then morality would be moot, and Jesus would be preaching to the choir! But we are by NATURE sinful! That is due to original sin - Adam's fallen image - passed down to all mankind.

Hope that clarified some things. Thank you for pointing out my mistake though Arch.

[hiramabbi2]

This is shaping up to be an interesting discussion IMO.

First, you never responded to my comments on 1 Corinthians 15...did you agree?.

There’s a reason why (my strategy) I did not make any comment on your exegesis of 1Corin.15 previously, since, I don’t feel like flooding this forum with circular argument. However, I thought it was good overall, but, completely missed the thrust of the message - man is just a natural living soul to begin with until he is created in the image and likeness of God or be born again spiritually.

The Scripture is very clear citing you the Making of Adam from the dust of the ground becoming a natural living soul before he became spiritual being.Genesis 2:7; 5:1-3

I just don’t see anyway around it.

1 CORINTHIANS 15
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a LIVING SOUL; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. v46 Howbeit that was NOT first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and AFTERWARD that which is spiritual.

First off, I believe we can both agree that Genesis 2 does not give the same account as Genesis 1. Genesis 1 lays out the 6-day creation in chronological order in a basic outline form and speaks specifically of God *creating* animals. Genesis 2 is in topical order(not chronological order) and lays out the details of events on the sixth day surrounding the creation of man specifically. It presupposes the order of the creation given in Genesis 1. Genesis 2 is built on the foundation of Genesis 1.

Yes and No. Genesis 1 is the complete History of the Creation, from beginning until ALL Christians are in Heaven. The word God (Elohim) is used to show that it was the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost who made the Perfect Heaven. . It details the History of How the Godhead Created His Perfect, physical, World. Most of it is past, but some of it is future. Gen. 1:29 shows us Prophecy that mankind will Eat of Every Tree, which includes the Tree of Life. This prophecy is fulfilled in Heaven. Rev. 22:2

Gen. 1:30 is also future and will be fulfilled when Jesus Returns to this Planet, and the Lion eats Straw as the Ox. Isaiah 11:7

When these prophecies are fulfilled, God's Creation of His Perfect Heaven, will be completed, and brought to Perfection....Finished. Then God will Rest or Sabbath, and He will Cease "ALL His work which God created and made." Gen. 2:3

Genesis 2:18-19 speak nothing of the chronology of the creation of man or animals - it just tells us that the animals were formed before being brought before Adam.

Of course it does! Genesis 2 could be reconciled in harmony to the chornological order of Genesis1. Perhaps, you just don’t know how, but, don't worry, I will show you on my next post right after this.

And I agree with you, this discussion is beginning to be interesting.

Again I believe your use of the KJV, in these verese creates confusion because it does not consider the context and tense of the word yatsar which means "formed." Genesis 1 never speaks of animals being created after Adam and Eve. Your entire case rests on the KJV translation of the word yatsar and its tense. Since Genesis 2 presupposes Genesis 1's chronology, we must accept Genesis 1's account that animals were created, then Adam and Eve. Genesis 2 goes into further detail on the sixth day by showing us that prior to Eve's creation, God presented Adam with all the animals he had formed to be named and also to show Adam that no animal was suitable for him (infering to Adam that bestiality is wrong). .

I believe, your confusion is based on the traditional belief of your forefathers. The FORMING of Adam from the dust of the ground was entirely different event from the creation of Adam and Eve spiritually in the image and likeness of God.

IF the squeezing of mud in forming Adam was the image and likeness of God, then. there must be something wrong with our Scripture.

The Invisible God Father, as we know, is a Spirit and and has NO PHYSICAL form. To be made in the image and likeness of God is to be created spiritually.

Therefore, your vain attempt to defend your view would only create more discrepancy in your doctrinal faith.

Adam was formed (squeezed into form as a potter moulds the clay) on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-7 Eve was built, physically, on the 6th Day. Gen 2:22. BOTH were Created, Spiritually, in God's Image, at the SAME time, after Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2

And the rest of your interpretation is only based on your religious view and would not pass the test of time. Again I will show you on my next post.

God's creation was GOOD. By God's standard of creation, Good = Perfect.

I am sorry but you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG with your religious assumption, my friend. God will not stop working until his work is perfected at the end of this present 6th Day. The 7th.day has no end.

Btw, I will also show you next time why your assumption of "Good = Perfect" is just your religious view and is not supported by the scripture. Remind me next time.

This is a very radical eisegesis of Scripture. It undermines the chronological account given in Genesis 1. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that tells us Adam was created on the third day. Genesis 2 is a detailed account of the sixth day. The KJV creates confusion due to it's mistranslation of the tense of the word yatsar.Furthermore, if you believe we're still in the "Creative Day of God", the Sixth Day, I believe you have also undermined the Sabbath Day - God's rest after the creation.

Genesis 1 tells the complete story of the Creation of the Perfect Heaven. God completes His work in 6 Days, and Genesis 2 tells us of the 7th Day when God will Rest (Heb-Shabath-Cease to Create).

Scripture tells us that God rested from ALL His work, which He had Created and Made. Jesus tells us that the Father and He are still working, Today, and most Christians believe that God, the Holy Ghost is continuing His work, Today.

Please explain Why God had to stop His work for 24 hours, at the beginning, and violate the Truth of the 7th Day, which shows that God Rested from ALL of His work.

The answer is simple. God will Not Rest until mankind eats of the Tree of Life in Heaven. Rev. 22:2 which fulfills the prophecy of Gen. 1:29. If you doubt this, then show us of a Time in History, when mankind has been given to eat of EVERY TREE.

ISAIAH 65
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

There was no 24 Hour Day and Scripture does not state that there was a 24 hour Day. Genesis shows that God has 6 Creative Days, and 1 Day of Rest which will Never End. How do you explain that you think God has more than 7 Days?

REVELATION 21:1
1 And I saw a NEW HEAVEN and a NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. v2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband

[hiramabbi2]

Understanding Genesis 1&2

(A Brief Reconciliation & Chronological Summary of Events)

NOTE: Insertions are mine for clarity.

"In the beginning God created the Heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep (Water), and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters." Genesis 1:1~2

"And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day." Genesis 1:3~5

THE 1st UNIVERSE, which was formed in the midst of the waters- Day 2.

"And God (Father) said, Let there be a firmament in the midts of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. v7 And God made the firmament of heaven, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. v8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the
evening and the morning were THE SECOND DAY." Genesis 1:6~8

Note: The 1st Earth, the 2nd Heaven, and the 3rd Heaven formed, - Day 3 which is before the plants and the herbs...

"And God said, Let the waters under the Heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the DRY land appear: and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw it was good." Genesis 1:9~10

"These are the generations of heavens and of the earth when they were created (by God Almighty) , in the day when the Lord God (Son or YHWH) made the earth and the heavens. Genesis 2:4

v5 And every plant of the field it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and THERE WAS NOT A MAN TO TILL THE GROUND."

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and water the whole place of the ground." Genesis 2:4~6

THE MOLDING OF MAN FROM THE DUST OF THE GROUND - 3rd Day!!!!

"And the Lord God formed MAN of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became A LIVING SOUL." Genesis 2:7

"And God (Father) said, Let the Earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed in itself, upon the earth:... Genesis 1:11

"And the earth brought forth grass and herb yielding seed after his kind, and tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were THE THIRD DAY." Genesis 1:12~13

"And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there HE PUT MAN WHOM HE HAD FORMED. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." Genesis 2:8~9

'And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for IN THAT DAY that thou eatest thereof, though shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16-17

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. And let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth:..." Genesis 1:14~15

"And God made two lights; the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night; He made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were THE FOURTH DAY." Genesis 1:16~19

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. v21 And God created great whales, and EVERY LIVING CREATURES that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind......." Genesis 1:20~21

"And the evening and the morning were THE FIFTH DAY." Genesis 1:23

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind...." Genesis 1:24

"And out of the ground, the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and every; and brought them unto Adam to see what would he call them; and whatsoever Adam called EVERY LIVING CREATURE, that was the name thereof." Genesis 2:19

"And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof: And the rib which theLord God had taken from man made he a woman, and brought her unto the man." Genesis 2:22~23

And it came to pass -- the old serpent beguiled Eve -- together (A&E) broke the first commandment of the Lord and were cursed.

THE PROPHECY ...

"I will put enmity between thee (old serpent) and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruse thy head, and thou shalt bruse his heel. Genenis 3:15

Adam and Eve were driven out of the garden.

Adam knew his wife; and she conceived and bare Cain ---- And she again bare his brother Abel --- It came to pass -- Cain rose up against his brother and slew him and lied about it --- Cain went out of the present of the Lord to the land of Nod -- and knew his wife and built a city.

The CREATION of A & E in the image and likeness of God -- Born Again Spiritually.

"Adam knew his wife again and she bare a son and called his name Seth; For God said, she, hath appointed me another seed (of the woman) instead of Abel, whom Cain slew." Genesis 4:25

v26 "And to Seth, to him also there was born a son: and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord."

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Genesis 1:26

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; MALE and FEMALE created he THEM." Genesis 1:27

"This is the book of the generation of Adam IN THE DAY that God created man in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day they were created. And Adam lived an hundred thirty years and begat a son in his (Adam's) own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth." Genesis 5:1~3

NOTICE: Cain - who was a murderer from the beginning - the first seed of the serpent -- was not included in the generations of Adam when they were created spiritiually in the image and likeness of God. The next generation in his likeness was Seth.

Note: The Sixth Day of God were recorded in the past tense in order to show the history of all creations, even though we are still in the Sixth Day of the Lord at this very moment!

"And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were THE SIX DAY." Genesis 1:31

The Seventh Day of the Lord will be day of His rest, which is still to come and will be the day of PERFECTION... for God ended his work on the Seventh Day.




God Bless

[hiramabbi2]

Esoteric_Illuminati wrote:
<<God's creation was GOOD. By God's standard of creation, Good = Perfect.>>

Hiramabbi2 Responded:
>>>I am sorry but you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG with your religious assumption, my friend. God will not stop working until his work is perfected at the end of this present 6th Day. The 7th.day has no end.

Btw, I will also show you next time why your assumption of "Good = Perfect" is just your religious view and is not supported by the scripture. Remind me next time.<<<

************************************************************


Dear Esoteric:

For your information, here is where/how the Creation is perfected as promised and for your study: I hope you'll find it very educational.


"in the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth" (Gen 1:1)
"I saw a new heaven and a new earth" (Rev 21:1)
____________________________________________
"The gathering together of waters He called the Sea" (Gen1:10)
"And the Sea is no more" (Rev 21:1)
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"The darkness He called Night" (Gen 1:5)
"there shall be no night there" (Rev 21:25)
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"God made the two great lights (sun and moon)" (Gen1:16)
"the city has no need of the Sun nor the Moon" (Rev 21:23)
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"in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die" (Gen 2:17)
"death shall be no more" (Rev 21:14)
____________________________________________

"I will greatly multiply your pain" (Gen 3:16)
"Neither shall there be pain anymore" (Rev 21:4)
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"cursed is the ground for your sake" (Gen 3:17)
"There shall be no more curse" (Rev 22:3)
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Satan appears as the deceiver of mankind (Gen 3:1-4)
Satan disappears forever (Rev 20:10)
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They were driven from the Tree of Life (gen 3:22-24)
The Tree of Life re-appears (Rev 22:2)
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They were driven from GOd's presence (Gen 3:24)
"they shall see His face" (Rev 22:4)
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Man's primeval home was by a river (Gen 2:10)
Man's Eternal home will be beside a river (Rev 22:1)


God Bless

[Esoteric_Illuminati]

There’s a reason why (my strategy) I did not make any comment on your exegesis of 1Corin.15 previously, since, I don’t feel like flooding this forum with circular argument. However, I thought it was good overall, but, completely missed the thrust of the message - man is just a natural living soul to begin with until he is created in the image and likeness of God or be born again spiritually.

Well, the 'thrust of your message' took 1 Corinthians 15 out of context, and you do the same thing again in this post, blah.

The Scripture is very clear citing you the Making of Adam from the dust of the ground becoming a natural living soul before he became spiritual being.Genesis 2:7; 5:1-3

I don't argue with you that Adam was made from the ground. My contention is that when God breathed life into Adam, He gave Adam his spirit/soul. His spirit was good until he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil - a sin that made him independent from God. His spirit did not "die." But rather separated itself from God's knowledge of good and evil - ergo becoming morally insane. This effectively changed Adam's nature (his image).

Yes and No. Genesis 1 is the complete History of the Creation, from beginning until ALL Christians are in Heaven. The word God (Elohim) is used to show that it was the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost who made the Perfect Heaven. . It details the History of How the Godhead Created His Perfect, physical, World. Most of it is past, but some of it is future. Gen. 1:29 shows us Prophecy that mankind will Eat of Every Tree, which includes the Tree of Life. This prophecy is fulfilled in Heaven. Rev. 22:2

Gen. 1:30 is also future and will be fulfilled when Jesus Returns to this Planet, and the Lion eats Straw as the Ox. Isaiah 11:7

When these prophecies are fulfilled, God's Creation of His Perfect Heaven, will be completed, and brought to Perfection....Finished. Then God will Rest or Sabbath, and He will Cease "ALL His work which God created and made." Gen. 2:3

I believe this is quite an elaborate eisegesis and twisting of Scripture. I completely disagree that the 7th Day of Creation in Genesis is to be interpreted as prophetic. God IS resting in the sense that He has finished His creation. God the Creator has not created anything since he created Adam and Eve. The work God does today is NOT creation, but rather redemption and reconciliation.

Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

The context of Scripture is clearly the past tense. See also Exodus 31:12-17. Same deal there. You really have to twist the context of Scripture to make this all fit. You later say "Note: The Sixth Day of God were recorded in the past tense in order to show the history of all creations, even though we are still in the Sixth Day of the Lord at this very moment! " - It just sounds to me like that is the spin you must use in order to try and reconcile your eisegesis with Scripture. In other words you say, "Scripture says this, but it really means that."

Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.

Genesis 2:18-19 speak nothing of the chronology of the creation of man or animals - it just tells us that the animals were formed before being brought before Adam.

Of course it does! Genesis 2 could be reconciled in harmony to the chornological order of Genesis1. Perhaps, you just don’t know how, but, don't worry, I will show you on my next post right after this.

I think you misunderstood. Once again, Genesis 2 is a detailed account of the Sixth Day that presupposes the chronology of Genesis 1. What does Genesis 1 say of the chronology of the creation of the Sixth Day?

I'll post it again:

Genesis 1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

^ This was clearly BEFORE man because:

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

^This verse CONFIRMS that animals were created first! God essentially says "Let's create man to rule over all I have already created" (as recorded in the verses right before it! How do you reconcile that with your eisegesis?

Furthermore, both Genesis 1:27 AND Genesis 2 clearly state that man was formed and given life on the same day. Genesis 1:9-13 says absolutely NOTHING about Adam being formed on the third day. That is clearly your addition to Scripture. On the sixth day, Adam was formed and given life from the ground that God had already created on the third day.

I believe, your confusion is based on the traditional belief of your forefathers. The FORMING of Adam from the dust of the ground was entirely different event from the creation of Adam and Eve spiritually in the image and likeness of God.

IF the squeezing of mud in forming Adam was the image and likeness of God, then. there must be something wrong with our Scripture.

The Invisible God Father, as we know, is a Spirit and and has NO PHYSICAL form. To be made in the image and likeness of God is to be created spiritually.

Therefore, your vain attempt to defend your view would only create more discrepancy in your doctrinal faith.

Adam was formed (squeezed into form as a potter moulds the clay) on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4-7 Eve was built, physically, on the 6th Day. Gen 2:22. BOTH were Created, Spiritually, in God's Image, at the SAME time, after Cain killed Abel. Gen 5:1-2

You are drawing a host of non-sequiturs. You somehow seem to draw limits on God's power of creation by saying that when God formed Adam, he could not have given him a spirit/soul.

In Scripture the creation of Adam is a single event - God formed Adam in His image from the ground and then breathed life in Him (Gen 1:27; 2:7). Genesis 2:7 is simply a detailed account of Genesis 1:27, NOT Genesis 1:9-13 (the third day).

I believe the breath of life given by God WAS essentially his spirit/soul.

Isaiah 57:16 I will not accuse forever,
nor will I always be angry,
for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me-
the breath of man that I have created.

Nothing you posit has a firm foundation in Scripture - only a clever eisegesis. Adam formed on the third day? Cain and Abel before Genesis 1:27? Cain is the seed of the serpent? Nuh uh.

I'll say it again, you MUST keep with the chronology of Genesis 1, which clearly states that animals were created before man and man himself being created in a single act of creation on the sixth day...not several dispersed acts throughout creation.

God's creation was GOOD. By God's standard of creation, Good = Perfect.

I am sorry but you're ABSOLUTELY WRONG with your religious assumption, my friend. God will not stop working until his work is perfected at the end of this present 6th Day. The 7th.day has no end.

Btw, I will also show you next time why your assumption of "Good = Perfect" is just your religious view and is not supported by the scripture. Remind me next time.

Wow. You mean I was wrong to think that when God creates, His creation is perfect? You have absolutely no Scriptural basis (without bowing to blatant contradictions) that we are still in the sixth day of creation. God finished His creation. He has not created since. Our Creator still rests from creating to this day. His creation remained absolutely perfect until original sin. God's work today is much different than creation. He will make things new once again when Christ returns.

Genesis 1 tells the complete story of the Creation of the Perfect Heaven. God completes His work in 6 Days, and Genesis 2 tells us of the 7th Day when God will Rest (Heb-Shabath-Cease to Create).

Scripture tells us that God rested from ALL His work, which He had Created and Made. Jesus tells us that the Father and He are still working, Today, and most Christians believe that God, the Holy Ghost is continuing His work, Today.

Please explain Why God had to stop His work for 24 hours, at the beginning, and violate the Truth of the 7th Day, which shows that God Rested from ALL of His work.

Consider the context:
Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

When you say "all His work," Genesis 2:2 makes it clear what that means. His work (creation) was done. How do you reconcile the context of Gen 2:2 with your eisegesis?

v5 And every plant of the field it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and THERE WAS NOT A MAN TO TILL THE GROUND."

6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and water the whole place of the ground." Genesis 2:4~6

THE MOLDING OF MAN FROM THE DUST OF THE GROUND - 3rd Day!!!!

I'm not seeing it at all. You're trying to pass off Genesis 2 as a part of the third day...but this contradicts the chronology of Genesis 1:24-31 - the sixth day and Genesis 1:9-13 says nothing of that.

Now as for Cain being the "seed of the serpent." How interesting you don't bother posting the one verse that contradicts that:

Genesis 4:1 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.

Looks to me like Cain was the seed of Adam, no different from Abel or Seth. The prophecy of Gen 3:15 does not imply that Eve will have any of serpent's children. It is a prophecy fulfilled in Christ's victory over Satan (Romans 16:20), not Cain killing Abel. Note that Christ came the line of Seth's line (Luke 3:38 cf. Genesis 4:26).

Finally in response to your Genesis v. Revelation comparisons - I was aware of such similarities and that proves nothing other than the obvious fact that when Christ returns things will be made new and good (once again). Things were "very good" according to God, prior to the fall. Things will also be "very good" upon Christ's return. As I've said before, God is perfectly Good, therefore the New "Eden" will be probably identical to the Old "Eden." That is simple common sense that when God makes things right, they will be like they are supposed to be - perfectly good. Prior to the Fall, creation was perfectly good. Original sin ravaged and cursed the creation. Upon Christ's return, the new heavens and earth will be like it was before the Fall - perfectly good.

Since these have been long posts...the bottom line from my perspective for this debate:
1. God created animals before man.
2. God both formed and created man in His image (perfect/righteous/holy/sinless) on the sixth day - not the third.
3. God rested from His creation - and still rests to this day from creation.
4. Adam and Eve's original sin separated man morally from God, caused man to lose God's image and take on a new fallen image(imperfect/unrighteous/unholy/sinful).
5. Adam's fallen image (nature) has been passed down through all generations of humanity.
6. Cain was Adam's son, not the serpents.
7. When Christ returns, things will be made new - the heaven and earth will pass away to make way for the new heavens and earth - which will be very similiar (if not identical) to God's creation prior to original sin.

What do other people think?

[hiramabbi2]

There’s a reason why (my strategy) I did not make any comment on your exegesis of 1Corin.15 previously, since, I don’t feel like flooding this forum with circular argument. However, I thought it was good overall, but, completely missed the thrust of the message - man is just a natural living soul to begin with until he is created in the image and likeness of God or be born again spiritually.

Well, the 'thrust of your message' took 1 Corinthians 15 out of context, and you do the same thing again in this post, blah

I believe IF anybody is taking 1Corin. 15:46-47 out of context , there is other than but yourself. The specific cited text do not need further explanation, so don’t pass your own doings unto me.

The entire chapter is not in contention here (which I agree in a way) but only the specific verses which you failed to understand. It only requires plain reading and not your private interpretation. Here, read it again and pond on it more - as it is plainly written in layman's term for your understanding. .

1 CORINTHIANS 15 :45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. v46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Why do you think the term “BORN AGAIN” is used, before, you enter the kingdom of heaven, according to the Scripture? The answer is simple, you’re just a NATURAL LIVING SOUL to begin with.

I don't argue with you that Adam was made from the ground. My contention is that when God breathed life into Adam, He gave Adam his spirit/soul. His spirit was good until he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil - a sin that made him independent from God. His spirit did not "die." But rather separated itself from God's knowledge of good and evil - ergo becoming morally insane. This effectively changed Adam's nature (his image). .

The breath of life given to Adam was not the spirit of God. It is the life giving "breath" because in him (Christ) is life. It is NOT what we received upon being born again spiritually.

There are just too many holes in your doctrines to overcome justifying your traditional belief. Here’s another few more text that contradict position.

ACTS 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL FLESH: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Again, why do you think the term used is “Born Again” in spirit of God if you had it to begin with? Why do think Jesus needs to send the Spirit of Truth if you already have the Spirit of God to begin with? How about those evil spirits that roams around waiting for their next victim?

Another proof of the soul & spirit is a separate thing from each other.

HEBREWS 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged SWORD, piercing even to the DIVIDING asunder of soul AND spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Clearly, the text is speaking of two subjects here, the soul and the spirit. There’s just no way getting around it, sorry.

I believe this is quite an elaborate eisegesis and twisting of Scripture. I completely disagree that the 7th Day of Creation in Genesis is to be interpreted as prophetic. God IS resting in the sense that He has finished His creation. God the Creator has not created anything since he created Adam and Eve. The work God does today is NOT creation, but rather redemption and reconciliation.

Perhaps, you should not have missed reading John 14:1-3 and Isaiah 65:17 before, and only to find out now that it contradicts your religious faith.

Even to this date, the Scriptures document us that Jesus and the Invisible Father are preparing a place for us to live in the future. READ

ISAIAH 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

JOHN 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. v2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to PREPARE a place for you. v3 And if I go and PREPARE a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

The context of Scripture is clearly the past tense. See also Exodus 31:12-17. Same deal there. You really have to twist the context of Scripture to make this all fit. You later say "Note: The Sixth Day of God were recorded in the past tense in order to show the history of all creations, even though we are still in the Sixth Day of the Lord at this very moment! " - It just sounds to me like that is the spin you must use in order to try and reconcile your eisegesis with Scripture. In other words you say, "Scripture says this, but it really means that."

Let me make this clear to you, so you understand. If I don’t agree with your distorted view of the Bible, it doesn’t mean to me that you are twisting the Scripture, clear?

And IF what you’re saying is true. Then, please explain to our readers why basically the Book of Revelation is written in past tense? Did all those prophesies fulfilled yet?

See, you can NOT have it both ways just to cover up your inability to defend your position, Scripturally. Again, your rationale is just based on your flawed assumptions of your religious doctrines.

I think you misunderstood. Once again, Genesis 2 is a detailed account of the Sixth Day that presupposes the chronology of Genesis 1. What does Genesis 1 say of the chronology of the creation of the Sixth Day?

On the contrary, perhaps, your preconceived notion is blurring your reading comprehension (no offence intended). I have shown you how to reconcile both chapters in chronological order of events that are in contextual harmony together. Yet, you seem to be slow understanding my position, somehow.

Furthermore, both Genesis 1:27 AND Genesis 2 clearly state that man was formed and given life on the same day. Genesis 1:9-13 says absolutely NOTHING about Adam being formed on the third day. That is clearly your addition to Scripture. On the sixth day, Adam was formed and given life from the ground that God had already created on the third day.

Again, I have provided you with my reconciliation of the text that are in harmony together.

Not like you though, I would not expect my opponent to provide me the verse that actually says so, word for word or VERBATIM which seems to be what you're looking for, is that right?

I kind of expect this kind of tactics only from people who could no longer defend their shaky religious stand. It's seems to me that your foundation is atmost giving up?

You are drawing a host of non-sequiturs. You somehow seem to draw limits on God's power of creation by saying that when God formed Adam, he could not have given him a spirit/soul.

That’s just your imagination my friend and there’s no truth in it. Of course, it is my position that Adam became a NATURAL LIVING SOUL, therefore, please don’t misrepresent my position based on your distorted assumption.

As I have indicated above, our soul is different from the pouring of the spirit of God when we are born again. For the nth, why do you think the term is called “BORN AGAIN” in spirit? Even our Christian high school teens understand this concept, don't you think so?

Do you have any problem understanding the usage of the word “AND”? How about the usage of the definite article “THE”? Please let me know.

ISAIAH 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for “the” spirit should fail before me, AND “the” souls” which I have made.

Have ye not heard of the spirits that is of the devil? Do you want scripture for that?

Now as for Cain being the "seed of the serpent." How interesting you don't bother posting the one verse that contradicts that:

Genesis 4:1 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." 2 Later she gave birth to his brother Abel.

Looks to me like Cain was the seed of Adam, no different from Abel or Seth. The prophecy of Gen 3:15 does not imply that Eve will have any of serpent's children. It is a prophecy fulfilled in Christ's victory over Satan (Romans 16:20), not Cain killing Abel. Note that Christ came the line of Seth's line (Luke 3:38 cf. Genesis 4:26).

It now becomes apparent that your disagreement with me is just your lack of spiritual understanding of the Scripture, fortunately.

Genesis 3:15 is a prophesy of the EMNITY between the seed of the serpent and the woman and is considered as a CURSED!!! While the coming of Christ speaks of the opening of the gates to his enemies, the above cited text speaks of nothing but emnities.

You should start spending more time reading the Bible rather than listening to other's doctrinal assumption of your forefathers.

The first prophecy of the coming of Christ is documented in Genesis 22:16-18, because of Abraham faith and obedience --Therefore, since God so loved the world he promised to send forth his only begotten Son as a sacrifice, instead of Isaac, Abraham son -- ALL NATIONS OF THE EARTH WOULD BE BLESSED, accordingly.

It was also Jesus Christ himself who revealed and proclaimed this TRUTH about Cain in the NT, in order to cast down other's wild imagination like yours. For you additional learning, please READ the text below.(insertion is mine for clarity)

JOHN 8 44 Ye are of your father (Cain) the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

IF you don’t believe Jesus made that assertion then please show our readers where we can find in the Scripture that Satan or any Devil was accused of being a murderer from the beginning and lied about it?

Furthermore, nowhere in the scripture you’ll find Cain was part of the genealogy of Adam’s generation IN THE DAY they were created in the likeness of God spiritually.

Read the Book of Matthews and Luke if you don't believe me.

Finally in response to your Genesis v. Revelation comparisons - I was aware of such similarities and that proves nothing other than the obvious fact that when Christ returns things will be made new and good (once again). Things were "very good" according to God, prior to the fall. Things will also be "very good" upon Christ's return. As I've said before, God is perfectly Good, therefore the New "Eden" will be probably identical to the Old "Eden." That is simple common sense that when God makes things right, they will be like they are supposed to be - perfectly good. Prior to the Fall, creation was perfectly good. Original sin ravaged and cursed the creation. Upon Christ's return, the new heavens and earth will be like it was before the Fall - perfectly good.

The difference between you and I is that I provide Scripture whenever I disagree with your flawed understanding of the Bible. You, on the other hand, will only provide private interpretation or opinion which only based on your religious view.

As I have said before, that and $1.60 will buy you a cup of coffee.


God Bless

[scorpia]

It now becomes apparent that your disagreement with me is just your lack of spiritual understanding of the Scripture, fortunately.
Genesis 3:15 is a prophesy of the EMNITY between the seed of the serpent and the woman and is considered as a CURSED!!! While the coming of Christ speaks of the opening of the gates to his enemies, the above cited text speaks of nothing but emnities.

Cursed as in getting painful prgnancies, and being second to men. Nothing more than that. And yes it does speak of emnity, but nothing about Cain or any other of Eve's children being a serpents child. It can, if you look at it, be seen as a prophecy; The snake getting his head crushed can be seen as Christs victory over the devil in his ressurection. And the snake biting eve's offpring can be seen as Christ getting killed.

JOHN 8 44 Ye are of your father (Cain) the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. HE WAS A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
IF you don’t believe Jesus made that assertion then please show our readers where we can find in the Scripture that Satan or any Devil was accused of being a murderer from the beginning and lied about it?
Furthermore, nowhere in the scripture you’ll find Cain was part of the genealogy of Adam’s generation IN THE DAY they were created in the likeness of God spiritually.

And why is Cain the devil? Besides, when it's said 'you are being like your father.' may not necessarily mean blood father. And Cain being part of Adams geneology is seen in Gen. 4. 1.

You should start spending more time reading the Bible rather than listening to other's doctrinal assumption of your forefathers.

Well, you seem to be quite the expert on biblical studies. But not everyone can carry their bibles around with them.

[hiramabbi2]

Dear Scopia/Esoteric:

I realize that what I post is very peculiar in nature and controversial, especially, to Christian traditions or doctrinal faith. However, I also realize that it agrees and reconciled with the Scripture.

I do not write the things I write to cause others, problems, but I write to cause others to read and study Scripture, and to see that God's Word is the Truth in every way.

Please accept my humble apology for whatever inconvenience or trouble that I might have caused you as a result.


God Bless