Is there no right or wrong?

[sledheavy]

I've been told that a common empiricist view is intended to point out that there is no right or wrong, there are just direct and indirect consequences for the decisions we make.

Any input on the topic?

[sledheavy]

If that is the mentality, that god's plan is a perfected process amongst an imperfect life, then I think christians must becoming more and more complacent with their own lives.

To say the system we live in is crap, but you like it anyway, doesn't inspire much confidence. lol. Like I said, people kill other people because of lack of morality in this country. I don't care if that's god's plan, we should agree that it's wrong and that it needs to change.

Even if it is god's law, the 'ultimate law' established by christians, do you really think people listen?

Consider if you were sued for the obviously wrong reason and intention and you lossed.

Eventually you'd have to come to terms with yourself about why and how it happened and probably you'd come to the conclusion of "god intended", or (the person who sued you) "would just get their spiritual comeupits from god."

But we don't know, we assume. We assume the person commiting the crime would get the proper karma indused reaming from god, but we can't say it actually happened. Maybe they commit it again and get rich off the poor god fearing tax payer. We have to consider this.

I'm preaching I know,

but the judicial system isn't suited for equality, morality or even individual ethics, doesn't matter what 'reality' of politics we can attempt to establish, or what religion we want to convey ultimate law. The consequences aren't prevalent, nor are they even as direct.

[Greatest I Am]

What I find more interesting is that human society grew into enforcing morals and laws, and now that's an incredibly grey area. Say...for instance, someone taking someone else to court and prosecuting for falling on their floor, etc. It might morally be in vain, but it's a part of our judicial system.

GIA wrote
Why is this in vain and since it speaks to political justice has no place here.

Maybe if we had a way of judging based solely on moral intent apart from our legal system. Idk.

GIA wrote
Hard to show but the political system tries with "Menes ray" Intent to harm must be shown.

Imagine 12 people from this forum in a jury. That's probably an all nighter, lol.

Give to Cesar what is Cesar, give to God what is God's.
Spiritual morality leads political morality. If there is a conflict, God's law should be supreme.

Regards
DL

Ah, well now I think we've hit a credible topic. Being that this is a country founded as one nation, under god. I.e. man handles the mundane politics and god handles the supreme judgement, it's easier to analyze the criteria.

Morality is still far from consistent. That's why we have people who have intent on suing, but don't consider the effect on the economy. Road rage, drug abuse. Our statistics are staggering, due in part to selfish intent, and no consideration of morality.

GIA wrote
Here is an area where stats are actually improving and yet the perception is that they are worse. Police chiefs have been complaining about this for years.

And what's the typical mentality of the do good-er? It's what my dad always said when he lived here. In the end, god will handle the problem. And yet, people aren't at all satisfied. Students are shot, hate crimes committed, and the rich can still get a lighter sentence. When we get upset at the faults of the judicial system it's easy to say, well god can handle it. Still doesn't mean people will get what they deserve in life. And to an atheist they get off with no supreme judgement.

We need morality as a basis and as an excuse to judge others based on our system which was founded by god fearing people. Take morality out of the equation and keep only the idea of a bureaucratic society founded by god, and we've got a huge problem.

Gloom and doom.

As God looks down on us, we can be sure that He is pleased with things or He would end them.

In fact a Perfect God can only create a reality that is Perfect.
We learn of good and evil, we reproduce. These are God's main instructions to us. We are doing quite well in these areas.

Remember that scripture says that there will be wars and rumors etc. do not worry about these things They look after themselves. Your own soul is what comes first.

Regards
DL

I agree with GIA on this last comment, and this world MAY be "perfect" for what God has intended us to learn from it.....but it is by no means perfect in the traditional sense of that word. Nor can it be, because man refuses to lean on God for guidance and follow His laws.

GIA wrote
Traditions change at a whim.
Trust in God more than tradition.

We create our own reality of laws and bend morality to suit ourselves. The judicial system is driven by politics, therefore cannot be successful in terms of equality and justice. Any time we replace God's laws with our own, we ARE doomed.

GIA wrote
Not so. A little faith in both man and God is all that is required.

Everybody has knowledge of right and wrong. I say it's God's laws written in our hearts. Others may use the word "conscience", whatever term we use - We know the difference. We may or may not pay a penalty here on earth for a crime, but ultimately, we need to let God judge that, as we are incapable of perfect judgement. The "right and wrong" in life comes from within

Both instincts and intelligence are in play within our natures.
You need to know though that there are relatively few evil doers out there. Just a few yes, relatively depends on how close you are. I know this and reiterate that things are not as bleak as you think.

God is omnipotent and Perfect.
He does not create souls just to throw them away.

Regards
DL

[sledheavy]

And yet the more our judical system strives, the more we're doomed...?

If someone commits a hate crime, does it fall under god's plan? Does he look happy? You've got to be refering to god's plan in bulk context.

If we scratch the judicial system, relied on god's laws to solve the problem, we'd be in just as big of mess with those that didn't recognize the christian religion, as much as we are now. Doesn't matter who's law, anyway around it, there's a posibility for an evil-doing to occur even with a christian society. That was brought up by your argument about humankind being fallible, and I agree.

We have a system of judgement though because of the expectation that these things happen, often, and that whether or not morality comes into play, theres a substancial amount who get away with crime. How it's handled, why it's handled, it's not satisfactory of everyone. Nor is the proof that god solves all problems truly evident amongst all western society. It probably wouldn't be of a difinitive christian culture either.

(sigh)...people are either relying on the idea of god far too much, or not often enough. But it's just the same argument everywhere else on this forum. I've just lost interest.

[Greatest I Am]

And yet the more our judicial system strives, the more we're doomed...?

If someone commits a hate crime, does it fall under god's plan? Does he look happy? You've got to be referring to god's plan in bulk context.

If we scratch the judicial system, relied on god's laws to solve the problem, we'd be in just as big of mess with those that didn't recognize the christian religion, as much as we are now. Doesn't matter who's law, anyway around it, there's a possibility for an evil-doing to occur even with a christian society. That was brought up by your argument about humankind being fallible, and I agree.

We have a system of judgement though because of the expectation that these things happen, often, and that whether or not morality comes into play, there's a substantial amount who get away with crime. How it's handled, why it's handled, it's not satisfactory of everyone. Nor is the proof that god solves all problems truly evident amongst all western society. It probably wouldn't be of a definitive christian culture either.

(sigh)...people are either relying on the idea of god far too much, or not often enough. But it's just the same argument everywhere else on this forum. I've just lost interest.

God had goo reason for giving us the tree of good and evil, we must all eat of it.
This is God's plan as shown in Genesis when we took our glorious leap away from the garden of ignorance.

His main job for us is to multiply and to learn of good and evil.
We are doing both well.
God is pleased.
Take comfort in that there are much more good people than evil.
We are gaining.

Regards
DL

[sledheavy]

And yet the more our judicial system strives, the more we're doomed...?

If someone commits a hate crime, does it fall under god's plan? Does he look happy? You've got to be referring to god's plan in bulk context.

If we scratch the judicial system, relied on god's laws to solve the problem, we'd be in just as big of mess with those that didn't recognize the christian religion, as much as we are now. Doesn't matter who's law, anyway around it, there's a possibility for an evil-doing to occur even with a christian society. That was brought up by your argument about humankind being fallible, and I agree.

We have a system of judgement though because of the expectation that these things happen, often, and that whether or not morality comes into play, there's a substantial amount who get away with crime. How it's handled, why it's handled, it's not satisfactory of everyone. Nor is the proof that god solves all problems truly evident amongst all western society. It probably wouldn't be of a definitive christian culture either.

(sigh)...people are either relying on the idea of god far too much, or not often enough. But it's just the same argument everywhere else on this forum. I've just lost interest.

God had goo reason for giving us the tree of good and evil, we must all eat of it.
This is God's plan as shown in Genesis when we took our glorious leap away from the garden of ignorance.

His main job for us is to multiply and to learn of good and evil.
We are doing both well.
God is pleased.
Take comfort in that there are much more good people than evil.
We are gaining.

Regards
DL

...irrevalent question, why does your user grouping only contain philosophers?

[justifyothers]

]

(sigh)...people are either relying on the idea of god far too much, or not often enough. But it's just the same argument everywhere else on this forum. I've just lost interest.

Well, you make good points in your other comments, but the above is the most striking to me. This is the problem in a tiny nutshell. We are not relying on God enough! Even religious people, even Christians,

I notice people in my everyday life that profess this and then turn around and do something that totally demonstrates the opposite. Seems we will follow until it really causes us to have to give or do without any selfish motive. Then we re-examine, and find some scripture that allows us to weasel out.


BUT, none of this means that God isn't there - it just proves we are going about things the wrong way. If you use the bible for historical reference, you can see this shown there too. Always looking to something other than God - stone carvings, cows, stars, etc. If you were God, wouldn't it sadden you deeply to see your creation constantly looking to something else ? something tangible ? You think you need to (sigh)......
I'm sad for your sigh.

[justifyothers]

[Take comfort in that there are much more good people than evil.
We are gaining.

Regards
DL

I thought there is none good but God. ??

[Greatest I Am]

[Take comfort in that there are much more good people than evil.
We are gaining.

Regards
DL

I thought there is none good but God. ??

Look again for the first time.
If you still do not see good people, move quickly.

Regards
DL

[justifyothers]

[Take comfort in that there are much more good people than evil.
We are gaining.

Regards
DL

I thought there is none good but God. ??

Look again for the first time.
If you still do not see good people, move quickly.

Regards
DL

OK
Let's get the criteria lined up for "good people". Then, I will look again for the first time.

[Greatest I Am]

[Take comfort in that there are much more good people than evil.
We are gaining.

Regards
DL

I thought there is none good but God. ??

Look again for the first time.
If you still do not see good people, move quickly.

Regards
DL

OK
Let's get the criteria lined up for "good people". Then, I will look again for the first time.

Jesus said love the sinner. Hate sin.
I think He set the criteria beter than i can phrase. follow him and you cannot loose.

Regards
DL