Morality of Teaching Animals

[JoeyKnothead]

I was remembering the chimp who was taught sign language, and then went on to teach it to others, and it got me to thinking of an old subject I used to ponder...

for reference...
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-Ne ... 1142?f=rss

Now I know this sounds ridiculous, but let's see where it goes. I was in a discussion once about language in chimps, and someone said, "They can't talk because they don't have a voice box." Now me, being the contrarian I am, I immediately answered, "No, they don't have a voice box because they don't talk." And I think there is some truth to this, which leads me too...

I think it would be one heck of a deal if we could teach chimps/bonobos to talk. Of course it would take many many years, and much effort, but I think it could be done.

So, my question is twicefold my forum folk...

1- Could we teach chimps/bonobos or any animal to talk. Let's just jump to the end and say talk with us in a creative, meaningful way.

2- Would it be ethical/moral to change an animal, and perhaps an entire animal species in such one heck of a profound way?

Discuss among yourselves class, you will be graded on your answers.

[QED]

1- Could we teach chimps/bonobos or any animal to talk. Let's just jump to the end and say talk with us in a creative, meaningful way.

I wonder if other animals are conscious enough for this. Let me try to explain what I'm thinking here...

It's very sad, but look at the problems that often come with very old age in humans. Dementia can be described as reducing the consciousness of a person. It's quite easy to experience various levels of consciousness even as a healthy person. Of course I'm not suggesting that animals are demented or drunk, but that we can't assume the same sort of essential self-awareness that seems to be some kind of focus for our "being". I usually stress things the other way, in favour of animals being smart and sentient... and I think they are to a great degree. But then there's a kind of "detached plodding through the world" that we can see in some people that reminds me very much of the way animals spend their days. Could it be then that there's not quite enough of a "person" inside other animals to have a meaningful chat with? Except, of course, at the simple level of "where's the food" and "let's play".

[JoeyKnothead]

1- Could we teach chimps/bonobos or any animal to talk. Let's just jump to the end and say talk with us in a creative, meaningful way.

I wonder if other animals are conscious enough for this. Let me try to explain what I'm thinking here...

It's very sad, but look at the problems that often come with very old age in humans. Dementia can be described as reducing the consciousness of a person. It's quite easy to experience various levels of consciousness even as a healthy person. Of course I'm not suggesting that animals are demented or drunk, but that we can't assume the same sort of essential self-awareness that seems to be some kind of focus for our "being". I usually stress things the other way, in favour of animals being smart and sentient... and I think they are to a great degree. But then there's a kind of "detached plodding through the world" that we can see in some people that reminds me very much of the way animals spend their days. Could it be then that there's not quite enough of a "person" inside other animals to have a meaningful chat with? Except, of course, at the simple level of "where's the food" and "let's play".

I see where you're going with this, but I disagree as to chimps. At the risk of a stereotype, I've been in pastures, I've seen cattle up close, they are dumber than a box of rocks with the rocks taken out and football bats put in instead. But I think the chimps show quite a degree of intelligence, with tool making and other things. There is also the idea that language helped mankind to actually become smarter, so it would be reasonable to think this would occur in our test subjects.

[Beto]

There is also the idea that language helped mankind to actually become smarter, so it would be reasonable to think this would occur in our test subjects.

There's some reciprocity there, right? Humanity got smarter as it used better language, and it used better language as it got smarter. Can we disassociate the two? To be assimilated by chimps, the "language" can hardly be called that when it begins being taught, otherwise it will be too overwhelming to be successful, I think.

Since intelligence, language, and the biological mechanism that supports it, evolved together, it stands to reason that chimps would require the necessary intelligence upfront, to use a language at the human level.

[JoeyKnothead]

There is also the idea that language helped mankind to actually become smarter, so it would be reasonable to think this would occur in our test subjects.

There's some reciprocity there, right? Humanity got smarter as it used better language, and it used better language as it got smarter. Can we disassociate the two? To be assimilated by chimps, the "language" can hardly be called that when it begins being taught, otherwise it will be too overwhelming to be successful, I think.

Since intelligence, language, and the biological mechanism that supports it, evolved together, it stands to reason that chimps would require the necessary intelligence upfront, to use a language at the human level.

I agree, and our experiment would have to be one of long term, patient commitment. I do think the process could be sped up compared to humans. Those better able to learn/speak would be the only ones to mate. (unless one showed the ability to brew a really good beer)

I don't think there is a fundamental limiting factor, I think it could be done, ethical/moral issues aside.

So let's think about that one...

Would it be okay to say train these chimps to rescue wounded people in hazardous settings? Let's say we will teach them to go into dangerous environments, rescue the injured, and perform advanced first aid. We would have a strong, now intelligent animal who could rescue humans without risking other humans' lives.

[Beto]

I don't think there is a fundamental limiting factor, I think it could be done, ethical/moral issues aside.

I think we could, yes.

So let's think about that one...

Would it be okay to say train these chimps to rescue wounded people in hazardous settings? Let's say we will teach them to go into dangerous environments, rescue the injured, and perform advanced first aid. We would have a strong, now intelligent animal who could rescue humans without risking other humans' lives.

I generally dislike having other animals do human work, at least at this point in human evolution. Can we really be proud of our achievements if we end up relying on chimps to rescue people when they bite off more than they can chew?

[JoeyKnothead]

Beto wrote:

I generally dislike having other animals do human work, at least at this point in human evolution. Can we really be proud of our achievements if we end up relying on chimps to rescue people when they bite off more than they can chew?

I like that take as well, and you have cost me untold millions in research funds. Here's your diploma, now get the heck out my classroom.

Is there anyone who can help me come up with a good reason to do this? If I don't get some grants I'm gonna lose my tenure.

[Beto]

Beto wrote:

I generally dislike having other animals do human work, at least at this point in human evolution. Can we really be proud of our achievements if we end up relying on chimps to rescue people when they bite off more than they can chew?

I like that take as well, and you have cost me untold millions in research funds. Here's your diploma, now get the heck out my classroom.

Is there anyone who can help me come up with a good reason to do this? If I don't get some grants I'm gonna lose my tenure.

Just go with the monkey-operated brewery. It trumps any old-fashioned concept of "morality" or "ethical system".

[JoeyKnothead]

Beto wrot:
[quote]
Just go with the monkey-operated brewery. It trumps any old-fashioned concept of "morality" or "ethical system".

Class dismissed, we're gonna go get some monkeys to brew us some beers!!!