Christianity and homosexuality

[sledheavy]

ok, so I've been wanting to just ask this for a freakin' while. And frankly I love the comment because everyone I know (i.e. conserv. republican types) that hear it gets CoMpLeTeLy pissed.

If god didn't desire gays, why did he create a prostate? Or more corrrectly, why'd he put it so close to the anus?

maybe this was already discussed on the forum, but I swear the reaction is classic.

Honestly though. I think it's interesting that the majority of classic nations (if politically correct) all experienced some form of homosexuality along their timeline.

[micatala]

One non religious reason is simple and i think i stated this before:
the point of marriage is to have a family agreed?
But a child cannot be reared into a good full citizen without the parental influence of a man and a women, both contribute many aspects and lessons that cannot be taught by the other.
I think it is the responsibility of a widow with young children to find a proper mother/father figure for those children
how can a young boy learn to be a man when he has no real male figure in his life.

I would agree that the data show that having a two parent family, which to date is typically mother and father, is more beneficial to children than the alternatives.

I would not agree, and neither would millions of couples, that the only reason for getting married is to have kids. Unless we are going to disallow marriages that don't produce children within a certain number of years, then this argument to me is a red herring.


Keep in mind also that we do allow single people to parent, either unmarried or divorced. Are boys raised by single moms incapable of becoming real men? Are girls raised by single dads unredeemably damaged?

I agree two parents is beneficial. I reject, especially without hard data, that children raised in alternative family situations "cannot be reared into a good full citizens."


Next, I do not think most divorced single parents think it 'their responsibility' to find another person to parent with. Certainly many would like this and do seek this for a variety of reasons, some personal and some 'because of the children.' However, I would guess based on my experience that very few feel this is an 'imperative' or 'their responsibility'.



Now, since we allow heterosexuals extreme latitude in how they arrange their 'parenting relationships', even knowing statistically that it is not always ideal, it seems hypocrital to not allow gay people the same latitude.

In addition, is there any actual data that shows gay parents are worse parents? Is it really worse for a kid to have two gay parents than one heterosexual parent?


If we are going to disallow gay marriage on the 'family basis' then I think, to be fair, we will also have to do a major, major overhaul of the laws regarding marriage in general. No single parents. No divorcing unless you have another spouse lined, up, etc.

Lets be honest gay guys cannot truly be called real men and im not saying that as an insult just a fact. If you look at the population of male convicts and drug dealers and drug heads etc you can easily notice a popular trait in each of them, they were raised by a single mother, now not all children of single mothers turn out bad but a great number do and it isn't the fault of the mother, its just a matter of a boy cant grow up to be a man without a man's influence

Reality is confusing growing up with no dad with growing up with a gay dad. Sorry, this assumption won't fly with me, not without some actual evidence. What do you mean by "real men" anyway? I have to say, this may not be an insult, but it is surely not a fact either. It seems a pretty subjective opinion to me.



We also need to consider, even in the case of single moms, what other factors are involved. For example, there may be factors which contribute both to the mother becoming a single mother and the son becoming a lawbreaker. I can think of one very prevalent factor right off the top of my head.

Poverty.

I would be interested in comparing four groups.

Non-poor couples
Non-poor single parents
Poor couples
Poor single parents

I bet we would find that a much larger percentage of the single parents are poor as compared to the couples for one. I will also bet the poor couples produce children who break the law at a greater rate than the non-poor couples.

Data anyone?

[reality101]

One non religious reason is simple and i think i stated this before:
the point of marriage is to have a family agreed?
But a child cannot be reared into a good full citizen without the parental influence of a man and a women, both contribute many aspects and lessons that cannot be taught by the other.
I think it is the responsibility of a widow with young children to find a proper mother/father figure for those children
how can a young boy learn to be a man when he has no real male figure in his life.

I would agree that the data show that having a two parent family, which to date is typically mother and father, is more beneficial to children than the alternatives.

I would not agree, and neither would millions of couples, that the only reason for getting married is to have kids. Unless we are going to disallow marriages that don't produce children within a certain number of years, then this argument to me is a red herring.


Keep in mind also that we do allow single people to parent, either unmarried or divorced. Are boys raised by single moms incapable of becoming real men? Are girls raised by single dads unredeemably damaged?

I agree two parents is beneficial. I reject, especially without hard data, that children raised in alternative family situations "cannot be reared into a good full citizens."


Next, I do not think most divorced single parents think it 'their responsibility' to find another person to parent with. Certainly many would like this and do seek this for a variety of reasons, some personal and some 'because of the children.' However, I would guess based on my experience that very few feel this is an 'imperative' or 'their responsibility'.



Now, since we allow heterosexuals extreme latitude in how they arrange their 'parenting relationships', even knowing statistically that it is not always ideal, it seems hypocrital to not allow gay people the same latitude.

In addition, is there any actual data that shows gay parents are worse parents? Is it really worse for a kid to have two gay parents than one heterosexual parent?


If we are going to disallow gay marriage on the 'family basis' then I think, to be fair, we will also have to do a major, major overhaul of the laws regarding marriage in general. No single parents. No divorcing unless you have another spouse lined, up, etc.

Lets be honest gay guys cannot truly be called real men and im not saying that as an insult just a fact. If you look at the population of male convicts and drug dealers and drug heads etc you can easily notice a popular trait in each of them, they were raised by a single mother, now not all children of single mothers turn out bad but a great number do and it isn't the fault of the mother, its just a matter of a boy cant grow up to be a man without a man's influence

Reality is confusing growing up with no dad with growing up with a gay dad. Sorry, this assumption won't fly with me, not without some actual evidence. What do you mean by "real men" anyway? I have to say, this may not be an insult, but it is surely not a fact either. It seems a pretty subjective opinion to me.



We also need to consider, even in the case of single moms, what other factors are involved. For example, there may be factors which contribute both to the mother becoming a single mother and the son becoming a lawbreaker. I can think of one very prevalent factor right off the top of my head.

Poverty.

I would be interested in comparing four groups.

Non-poor couples
Non-poor single parents
Poor couples
Poor single parents

I bet we would find that a much larger percentage of the single parents are poor as compared to the couples for one. I will also bet the poor couples produce children who break the law at a greater rate than the non-poor couples.

Data anyone?

first, i come from a very poor household and i dont think money is an issue if parents are responsible, i always used to thinkmy parents were bad people who only wanted me to have not fun but when i got older i realized that they were rite 99% of the time

when i say real men i mean guys who can relate experiences in a young boys life and who are just in general more masculine than feminin
i dont think im confusing it at all because it is virtually the same thing,

i dont think divorce should be allowed anyway

[micatala]

first, i come from a very poor household and i dont think money is an issue if parents are responsible, i always used to thinkmy parents were bad people who only wanted me to have not fun but when i got older i realized that they were rite 99% of the time

Sure, lot's of poor families raise kids who are upstanding citizens. My own parents frequently had significant financial difficulties. However, isolated examples don't prove the case. THe issue is do poor families as a population produce kids who break the law at a higher rate than rich families.

when i say real men i mean guys who can relate experiences in a young boys life and who are just in general more masculine than feminin
i dont think im confusing it at all because it is virtually the same thing,

This is still not making sense. How do we know gay men are less able to 'relate to' experiences in a young boys life than heterosexuals? I would suggest we don't really know this. THis is just an assumption based on stereoytpes of gay men.

Again, the larger issue is that we allow single parents and we don't have any restrictions on the gender for children of single parents.

Also, this comment was related to the confusion between having no dad versus having a gay dad. Is there any evidence that having two gay dads and no mom is worse than having a mom and no dad, or one heterosexual dad and no mom? Wouldn't it stand to reason, even on a subjective basis, that having two parents is better than having one?



Without some actual evidence (versus unsubstantiated opinion), it is highly unfair to prohibit gay marriage based on these types of arguments.

i dont think divorce should be allowed anyway

I have no problem with this position. However, if the law of the land allows for divorce and single parents, etc., it really should allow for gay marriage.