Should The Pope Resign?

[The Happy Humanist]

OK, so Joey Ratzinger gets elevated to "Pope Ratzo I", despite having been in the Hitler Youth, and despite having turned a blind eye to the philanderings of several clerics on his watch. I mean, think about just this one story...
A priest (!) raped (!!) 200 (!!!) deaf (!!!!) boys(!!!!!)
Can we take it, from Ratzo's inaction (and continuation in the Shoes of the Fisherman), that the Catholic Church is OK with homosexuality, priests violating their oath of celibacy, and the serial rape of handicapped children? What other conclusion can we come to?

[Mascaput]

I am honestly astounded that so many people say the Pope should resign immediately, not waiting for more information. This strikes me as a lynching based on superficial media reports. I certainly acknowledge that the worst may be true, but this is far from being proven at this point. But help me understand, what is the specific crime that you are so thoroughly convinced he committed that leads you to vote "resign now."?

Well he failed to do what his boss, Jesus told him to do in his holy book, concerning child abusers and the use of millstones to drown them.

Matt 18:1-6 (KJV) But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

I think that says it all, straight from the boss' mouth, no? No ifs, buts or maybes, no forgiveness, just good old payback.

M

[Joshua Patrick]

I highly doubt that the Pope will resign from his post. Just have to deal with another 2000 years of Pope's if need be.

The Peadophile's within the church are sick and it's diabolical that they even became priests, having feelings towards children like that makes me physically sick, but I guess alot of Peado's would want to become priests if it's so easy to be around children like it is in a Catholic parish, and a Catholic Bishop cannot tell straight away if they are peadophile's, you have to go through a strict 7 year period before you become a priest in the Catholic church.

My personal opinion it that its more homosexuality then peadophile problems.

"Stephen Rubino, a lawyer who has represented over 300 alleged victims of priest abuse, estimates 85 percent of the victims have been teen-age boys. And Catholic psychiatrist Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, who has treated many victims and offending priests, agrees with that figure, noting that 90 percent of his patients are either abused teen-age males or their priest abusers. "

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27539

They is alot of closet gays in Catholic seminaries, the church is undergoing a clean up.
.


But what Pope and Bishops did may have been wrong but everybody is effected by Human Error.


The Church may have lost some morale ground within the world, but it will regain it. The church always does.

[Goat]

I highly doubt that the Pope will resign from his post. Just have to deal with another 2000 years of Pope's if need be.

The Peadophile's within the church are sick and it's diabolical that they even became priests, having feelings towards children like that makes me physically sick, but I guess alot of Peado's would want to become priests if it's so easy to be around children like it is in a Catholic parish, and a Catholic Bishop cannot tell straight away if they are peadophile's, you have to go through a strict 7 year period before you become a priest in the Catholic church.

My personal opinion it that its more homosexuality then peadophile problems.

"Stephen Rubino, a lawyer who has represented over 300 alleged victims of priest abuse, estimates 85 percent of the victims have been teen-age boys. And Catholic psychiatrist Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, who has treated many victims and offending priests, agrees with that figure, noting that 90 percent of his patients are either abused teen-age males or their priest abusers. "

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27539

They is alot of closet gays in Catholic seminaries, the church is undergoing a clean up.
.


But what Pope and Bishops did may have been wrong but everybody is effected by Human Error.


The Church may have lost some morale ground within the world, but it will regain it. The church always does.

Well... no.. have you ever thought that the reason that there is so much higher percentage of boys that girls is that until recently, girls could not be altar boys, and were not given the same kind of positions boys got?

[Mascaput]

I highly doubt that the Pope will resign from his post. Just have to deal with another 2000 years of Pope's if need be.

The Peadophile's within the church are sick and it's diabolical that they even became priests, having feelings towards children like that makes me physically sick, but I guess alot of Peado's would want to become priests if it's so easy to be around children like it is in a Catholic parish, and a Catholic Bishop cannot tell straight away if they are peadophile's, you have to go through a strict 7 year period before you become a priest in the Catholic church.

My personal opinion it that its more homosexuality then peadophile problems.

"Stephen Rubino, a lawyer who has represented over 300 alleged victims of priest abuse, estimates 85 percent of the victims have been teen-age boys. And Catholic psychiatrist Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, who has treated many victims and offending priests, agrees with that figure, noting that 90 percent of his patients are either abused teen-age males or their priest abusers. "

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27539

They is alot of closet gays in Catholic seminaries, the church is undergoing a clean up.
.


But what Pope and Bishops did may have been wrong but everybody is effected by Human Error.


The Church may have lost some morale ground within the world, but it will regain it. The church always does.

You cannot ragain any sense of true morailty when you have been shown to be a protector and defender of the lowest form of beast on the planet --- namely child sex abusers, rapists of the innocent and defenceless.
The Church of Rome has always operated on levels of illusion and contrived goodness, solely to hide its sickly underbelly. For the past 1600 years or so it has murdered, raped, burned people alive, even children, and lied about its imaginary powers that only serve to keep the offeratory plates loaded with cash. I'm not saying the average Catholic is evil, but the do lend tacit approval to their frocked overlords by not looking at what they do in their name and support.
Give evil free reign and it will spread like a weed.

[Mascaput]

I highly doubt that the Pope will resign from his post. Just have to deal with another 2000 years of Pope's if need be.

The Peadophile's within the church are sick and it's diabolical that they even became priests, having feelings towards children like that makes me physically sick, but I guess alot of Peado's would want to become priests if it's so easy to be around children like it is in a Catholic parish, and a Catholic Bishop cannot tell straight away if they are peadophile's, you have to go through a strict 7 year period before you become a priest in the Catholic church.

My personal opinion it that its more homosexuality then peadophile problems.

"Stephen Rubino, a lawyer who has represented over 300 alleged victims of priest abuse, estimates 85 percent of the victims have been teen-age boys. And Catholic psychiatrist Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, who has treated many victims and offending priests, agrees with that figure, noting that 90 percent of his patients are either abused teen-age males or their priest abusers. "

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27539

They is alot of closet gays in Catholic seminaries, the church is undergoing a clean up.
.


But what Pope and Bishops did may have been wrong but everybody is effected by Human Error.


The Church may have lost some morale ground within the world, but it will regain it. The church always does.

Well... no.. have you ever thought that the reason that there is so much higher percentage of boys that girls is that until recently, girls could not be altar boys, and were not given the same kind of positions boys got?

The reason that the Church never encouraged girls and women to take up any real role in its works, is that they were only interested in targeting boys, and making them perverted, as that is what perverts do. Not all priests are sex perverts, but there is something very weird about a cult of men who praise the values of family life but deliberately abstain from the one thing necessary to have children i.e. sex with females, not males or children.

[Joshua Patrick]

Well... no.. have you ever thought that the reason that there is so much higher percentage of boys that girls is that until recently, girls could not be altar boys, and were not given the same kind of positions boys got?

You are rather attracted to men or not, I cant see any logic in " oh girls don't get the same positions as boys get in the church, so I'll make do with a boy".

You cannot ragain any sense of true morailty when you have been shown to be a protector and defender of the lowest form of beast on the planet --- namely child sex abusers, rapists of the innocent and defenceless.
The Church of Rome has always operated on levels of illusion and contrived goodness, solely to hide its sickly underbelly. For the past 1600 years or so it has murdered, raped, burned people alive, even children, and lied about its imaginary powers that only serve to keep the offeratory plates loaded with cash. I'm not saying the average Catholic is evil, but the do lend tacit approval to their frocked overlords by not looking at what they do in their name and support.
Give evil free reign and it will spread like a weed.

The church is like one of the biggest Charity organizations in the world, you cannot deny that.

murdered, raped, burned people alive, even children, and lied about its imaginary powers that only serve to keep the offeratory plates loaded with cash.

Strong words, what occasion we talking about in this "1600" years reign of terror. The rain of terror of Mother Teresa?

Maybe the 500 people Padre Pio killed while giving confessions to people 16 hours a day?

Or MAYBE the sexual exploitation of Druid priests by St.Patrick, while he was trying to spread this evil Catholicism of Christianity?

I'm not saying the average Catholic is evil, but the do lend tacit approval to their frocked overlords by not looking at what they do in their name and support.

Im not saying an average English person is evil, because of the tax money they give to the governments by not looking at what they do in their name and support.

For example 800 years of rape,murder and enslavery of the Irish people, or maybe the framing of the Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6 OR the shooting of 13 innocent people in Free Derry by British soldiers.

Stop talking daft most Catholic do know where the money goes, you think it's all give give an then all hush hush?

It's not the clergy who just represents the church it is the "Average Catholic", who do you think sets up Catholic charity's which then receives money from the church.

The reason that the Church never encouraged girls and women to take up any real role in its works, is that they were only interested in targeting boys, and making them perverted, as that is what perverts do. Not all priests are sex perverts, but there is something very weird about a cult of men who praise the values of family life but deliberately abstain from the one thing necessary to have children i.e. sex with females, not males or children.

I find these words very offences, I have family in the priesthood to call them a cult of men and weird is disrespectful. I doubt every priest breaks his vows, you will find the majority of priests to be civil and uphold what they "representing".

Nothing wrong with upholding family values, even if you are abstaining from them because of beliefs.

[/quote]

[Goat]

Well... no.. have you ever thought that the reason that there is so much higher percentage of boys that girls is that until recently, girls could not be altar boys, and were not given the same kind of positions boys got?

You are rather attracted to men or not, I cant see any logic in " oh girls don't get the same positions as boys get in the church, so I'll make do with a boy".

Pedophiles are attracted to young people.. boys or girls. Young boys do not have distinguishing sexual characteristics yet. They don't have hair, they don't have their musculature.

And, rape is about power, not sex. Power over innocent people.

[Mascaput]

You are rather attracted to men or not, I cant see any logic in " oh girls don't get the same positions as boys get in the church, so I'll make do with a boy".

I think you misunderstood my reference to the lack of altar-girls, or whatever they are called. The reason that they were not wanted is that homosexuals are attracted to members of their own gender, and it has nothing to do with age.
Any male or female who has sex with any other male or female, be they 7, 10, 16, or 66, is a homosexual, but not necessarily a paedophile. Some homosexuals are referred to as paedophiles if they engage in sex with minors, children. If they have sex with underage members of the opposite sex, then they are also paedophiles, but not homosexuals. Most male children who are sexually abused are abused by male homosexuals (individuals attracted to their own gender).
The Roman clergy in particular show a 100% negative attitude towards females being involved in their ranks, with an outright ban that extends to excommunication for any priest who ordains a female. These are facts, not beliefs.

The church is like one of the biggest Charity organizations in the world, you cannot deny that.

What exactly has that got to do with child abuse by priests? Anyway, most charity work is done by lay people. Are you somehow saying that you can get some credits for doing charity work and then work it off against turning to child abuse? Can you explain the relationship between your introducing the issue of charity in this context?

...murdered, raped, burned people alive, even children, and lied about its imaginary powers that only serve to keep the offeratory plates loaded with cash.

Strong words, what occasion we talking about in this "1600" years reign of terror. The rain of terror of Mother Teresa? Maybe the 500 people Padre Pio killed while giving confessions to people 16 hours a day?

Not just strong words, but strong facts. How about the Spanish Inquisition? The papal crusades against the Cathars (who were Christians) The Crusades in the Middle East? Don't take my word for it, go and check it out...thousands and thousands of innocent people, including children, all murdered in the name of God.
Yet again you seem to be bringing in things that have nothing to do with the child sex abuse scandal. What has it got to do with Mother Teresa and Padre Pio? Are you saying that they abused children?

Or MAYBE the sexual exploitation of Druid priests by St.Patrick, while he was trying to spread this evil Catholicism of Christianity?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, As far as I know there is no evidence of Druids in Ireland, apart from Church invention and hearsay. The conquerors write the history, and Ireland has never fully known peace since the introduction of Christianity. Look at the savagery in the North, the hate and the bigotry, which still continues to this day, and will most likely erupt again. Have you never wondered how come you never heard of nuns getting pregnant by priests? Where did all those children go? How come a Catholic nun will never be examined by a coroner who is not of their own religion? Why? What would they find?

Im not saying an average English person is evil, because of the tax money they give to the governments by not looking at what they do in their name and support.

The same follows for practically every nation under the sun, so I'm not sure what this has to do with the subject in hand. Blind faith in politics is just as bad as blind belief in gods, but religion professes to be above all that lowly stuff, doesn't it?

For example 800 years of rape,murder and enslavery of the Irish people, or maybe the framing of the Guildford 4 and the Birmingham 6 OR the shooting of 13 innocent people in Free Derry by British soldiers.

Aah, the old patriot line, the poor oppressed minority group who acts the victim, even if they never actually lived through it. Martyrdom by proxy?
I agree that what happened the Irish was bad/evil, but it just goes to show when sects of the same basic religion take turns at battering each other to death. It all comes down to "My god is bigger and better than your god!"
Irish children used to be taught of the wonderful "victory" of Saint Patrick against the "pagans" (country-dwellers)as he used to round some of the locals up and burned them alive in order to convert others to his form of deity worship. (His actual name was Patricius Magonus Sucatus, a Roman citizen of the Patrician class) His father, Calpurnius, was a curialis (tax collector) and his grandfather, Potitus, a catholic priest, but that was before marriage was "banned" by the Church. Is it any wonder that it all ended in so much bloodshed and scandal?

Stop talking daft most Catholic do know where the money goes, you think it's all give give an then all hush hush?

When did you ever get a receipt for a Church collection? How much does a Catholic priest actually earn? Have you ever asked, or do you just "believe" what you don't know? Religion is supposed to represent transparency and honesty, but have you ever been given (or asked for) an account of where the money actually goes? Where do you think the annual collection called "Peter's pence" originated?

It's not the clergy who just represents the church it is the "Average Catholic", who do you think sets up Catholic charity's which then receives money from the church.

Really? What say does the "average Catholic" actually have in relation to the selection and election of their priesthood? How paedophile priests are treated? How money is accounted for?
Roman Catholicism is not a democratic system, and it's far from it. You do what you are told, and simply pray and believe whatever the rules say, no matter how contradictory and opposed to actual reality they might be, such as accepting that you are actually drinking human blood and eating human flesh. You must unreservedly accept this belief if you are a Roman Catholic, so am I correct that you do actually accept this?

On a point of information, the average Catholic does not go to the clergy for money. The clergy have "collections" from the members and they allow the charity to keep a percentage, usually 50% of the takings. It costs the "Church" (the clergy) nothing, and just adds to what they already have but never disclose because of "confidentiality and trust" issues. Check it out, that's if you can ever get to see what goes on when the money gets counted. I'm talking from actual experience here.

[quote: Mascaput]The reason that the Church never encouraged girls and women to take up any real role in its works, is that they were only interested in targeting boys, and making them perverted, as that is what perverts do. Not all priests are sex perverts, but there is something very weird about a cult of men who praise the values of family life but deliberately abstain from the one thing necessary to have children i.e. sex with females, not males or children.

I find these words very offences, I have family in the priesthood to call them a cult of men and weird is disrespectful. I doubt every priest breaks his vows, you will find the majority of priests to be civil and uphold what they "representing".

Nothing wrong with upholding family values, even if you are abstaining from them because of beliefs.

I don't see why you need to feel offended. All religions are cultic (a devotion to a system of belief or worship of a deity/deities). The word "weird" means "pertaining to the supernatural", which I would presume covers invoking the spirits of the dead (including their pantheon of saints), the praying for rewards from the deity, and the belief that only they are following the true way to "salvation", which cannot be actually evidenced or proven by any living being. Is that not symptomatic of a cult?

How can anyone who doesn't live with their family or have offspring claim to be upholding family values? To my way of thinking, it's like saying that you value alcohol even if you are teetotal, or claiming the virtues of being a vegetarian but never eat vegetables or fruit? How on earth can you abstain from something that promotes the continuation of your actual life, the only thing you actually have that is yours, and then claim to promote those values? Does this actually make sense to you?

I'm just asking questions so as to try to understand your viewpoint, and why you see things the way you do, so there's no need to take things personally. You can choose to be offended or not.

Regards,
M

[Grumpy]

Mascaput

I think you misunderstood my reference to the lack of altar-girls, or whatever they are called. The reason that they were not wanted is that homosexuals are attracted to members of their own gender, and it has nothing to do with age.
Any male or female who has sex with any other male or female, be they 7, 10, 16, or 66, is a homosexual, but not necessarily a paedophile. Some homosexuals are referred to as paedophiles if they engage in sex with minors, children. If they have sex with underage members of the opposite sex, then they are also paedophiles, but not homosexuals. Most male children who are sexually abused are abused by male homosexuals (individuals attracted to their own gender).
The Roman clergy in particular show a 100% negative attitude towards females being involved in their ranks, with an outright ban that extends to excommunication for any priest who ordains a female. These are facts, not beliefs.

Not only is blaming pedophilia on homosexuals offensive, it is scientifically rubbish(and is the position of the Catholic Church, hence the purging of non-pedophile preists). Pedophiles are attracted to children, the sex of the child is irrelivant.

"For the present discussion, the important point is that many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.

Using the fixated-regressed distinction, Groth and Birnbaum (1978) studied 175 adult males who were convicted in Massachusetts of sexual assault against a child. None of the men had an exclusively homosexual adult sexual orientation. 83 (47%) were classified as "fixated;" 70 others (40%) were classified as regressed adult heterosexuals; the remaining 22 (13%) were classified as regressed adult bisexuals. Of the last group, Groth and Birnbaum observed that "in their adult relationships they engaged in sex on occasion with men as well as with women. However, in no case did this attraction to men exceed their preference for women....There were no men who were primarily sexually attracted to other adult males..." (p.180).


Other
Approaches

Other researchers have taken different approaches, but have similarly failed to find a connection between homosexuality and child molestation. Dr. Carole Jenny and her colleagues reviewed 352 medical charts, representing all of the sexually abused children seen in the emergency room or child abuse clinic of a Denver children's hospital during a one-year period (from July 1, 1991 to June 30, 1992). The molester was a gay or lesbian adult in fewer than 1% in which an adult molester could be identified – only 2 of the 269 cases (Jenny et al., 1994). In yet another approach to studying adult sexual attraction to children, some Canadian researchers observed how homosexual and heterosexual adult men responded to slides of males and females of various ages (child, pubescent, and mature adult). All of the research subjects were first screened to ensure that they preferred physically mature sexual partners. In some of the slides shown to subjects, the model was clothed; in others, he or she was nude. The slides were accompanied by audio recordings. The recordings paired with the nude models described an imaginary sexual interaction between the model and the subject. The recordings paired with the pictures of clothed models described the model engaging in neutral activities (e.g., swimming). To measure sexual arousal, changes in the subjects' penis volume were monitored while they watched the slides and listened to the audiotapes. The researchers found that homosexual males responded no more to male children than heterosexual males responded to female children (Freund et al., 1989).

Science cannot prove a negative. Thus, these studies do not prove that homosexual or bisexual males are no more likely than heterosexual males to molest children. However, each of them failed to prove the alternative hypothesis that homosexual males are more likely than heterosexual men to molest children or to be sexually attracted to children or adolescents. "

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/h ... ation.html

(from the UC Davis Psychology School)

You are factually incorrect to hold the offensive position you expressed above.

Grumpy

[Slopeshoulder]

I am not sure that his resignation would do any good. In order to restore any confidence that society has in the integrity of the Roman Catholic Church a number of steps need to happen:

1. The current pontiff has to make full and open disclosure about all of his activities and knowledge of activities done by anyone in the Roman Catholic Church to protect pedophiles from investigation and civil prosecution. In order for this disclosure to be convincing, it should contain details that have yet to be suspected or come to light.
2. The Roman Catholic Church will fully and willingly cooperate with all investigations into pedophile activities among their own. There will be nothing hidden, nothing sacred. All of the books, all of the files and all relevant documents will be open to legal secular authorities. Search warrants will not be required.
3. The Pontiff will announce, ex cathedra, that absolution for pedophile offenses by all members of all clerical orders cannot be granted without repentance and that repentance is not genuine unless the offender turns himself in to secular authorities. This measure will include anyone who has assisted in protecting pedophiles from investigation and prosecution.
4. The Pontiff will, himself, assist in any civil prosecution against himself that may be merited.
5. The Roman Catholic church will fund an appropriate level of counseling and assistance for its victims.
6. The Roman Catholic Church will undertake to gain a fuller understanding of what causes and contributes to both pedophile behavior and the motivation to cover up. Measures will be taken to seriously address both issues. In the first, the principle of clerical celibacy should be re-evaluated. In the second, the church really needs to embrace its own version of Glasnost.

The Church has lost a lot of moral ground, but I do not believe that it is impossible for it to regain it. The changes needed are drastic and strong, but absolutely necessary.

I agree with every word.

Ratzinger has been the bane liberals and centrists for decades. And while I think the OP is in violation of the rules of civility and paints coarsely and with a broad brush, I will admit that we moaned loud and long when he became pope and we call him benny the rat. I loathe the man.