LGBT activism in The Church. Why not just be wronged by it?

[99percentatheism]

As the Gay Agenda, of legislating the acceptability of homosexuality and indeed "normalizing homosexual behavior" in the secular world, is finding its way into places called Christian Churches (several "Progressive and Liberal" denominations, and some being well established), should Christians that reject homosexuality, LGBT culture, and activism, and see the promoting of homosexuality as antithetical to the written record of the New Testament and orthodoxy, fight against this activist agenda or just "be wronged" by it? Should pro-orthodox Christians take a stand against Gay Activism IN the Church in a way described by Jude, Paul and Peter?

Should Christians that try earnestly to follow the teachings of the New Testament and reject same gender sexual behavior on scriptural and historical grounds, continue a secular political fight against the Gay Lobby or just stop using secular means and live similar lives in ways like the First Century Church did under similar circumstances? That being, immorality, vice and sexual depravity were secular-cultural norms and were engaged in by some people in The Church and yet were allowed to stay in congregations under certain circumstances?

Here is a few teachings from the New Testament record:

1 Corinthians 6:

Even to have such lawsuits with one another is a defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that?

Why not let yourselves be cheated?

Instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your fellow believers.

Dont you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God?

Dont fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people"none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Avoiding Sexual Sin

You say, I am allowed to do anything"but not everything is good for you. And even though I am allowed to do anything, I must not become a slave to anything. You say, Food was made for the stomach, and the stomach for food. (This is true, though someday God will do away with both of them.) But you cant say that our bodies were made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies. And God will raise us from the dead by his power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead.

Dont you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which is part of Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! And dont you realize that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, The two are united into one. But the person who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him.

Run from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. Dont you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.

The Apostle Peter makes a similar apologia.

1 Peter 4:

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do"living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

And Jude points out that there will be all manner of miscreants IN The Church. He points out who and what they are but he never says to eject them from a congregation. Just to recognize what they are:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to Gods holy people.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm"shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted"twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

A Call to Persevere

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires. These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in Gods love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

Be merciful to those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy,

mixed with fear"hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

[99percentatheism]

Divine Insight

He said to not judge unless you are prepared to face the same charges for doing the same thing. You lookmto be putting some kind of hippy free love taint to the Gospels. That doesn't seem to be warrneted from looking at how Jesus dealt with things IN the Gospels.

I disagree. There is no justification in anything Jesus taught for you to be judging others in his name.

Well, the record of the New Testament says otherwise. Jesus too in the Gospels.

So if you organize a hateful Church in Jesus' name I don't recognize it as having anything to do with Jesus.

I can't imagine anything more hateful is all reality then a so-called Christian Church that is every bit the exact same as a secular club at a College. Encouraging people to sin has to be the worst kind fo sinning. In fact Jesus very much seems to say that.

In fact, it's precisely those kinds of Churches that give Jesus a bad name. Such Churches are an insult to Jesus IMHO.

Sounds very propaganda comeback to me.

A reading of the New Testament from Gospels to Jude show that many concerns and actions about wrongdoing by people in the Church must be undertaken. This thread is about how Christians ought to go about dealing with the concerns of gay activism in the Church. There can be no legigimate doubt that at least Paul dealt with homosexuals in the Church and of course famously OUTSIDE of it as well (Romans 1,2). And Jude and Peter certainly deal with the sexually immoral in the Church. Scriptures were provided in the OP.

You are certainly free to worship Paul as the Christ if you like. But IMHO when you do that you are just spitting in the face of Jesus.

That's laughable. Tragically laughable.

Jesus himself warned that there would be false prophets like Paul who would come and preach in his name.

That's just plain error. You couldn't back that opinion up with any scripture.

He also make it clear that we would be able to tell these false prophets by the stench of their rotten fruit. Paul's teachings are a perfect examples of rotten stench IMHO.

I have interacted with enough people like you that your "humble opinion" is standard fare.

So I don't recognize Paul as having anything at all to do with Jesus. Jesus warned us against such false prophets, and did not prophesy the coming of Paul at all. So there is no reason for anyone to worship Paul at all.

Well, that is an utterly odd apologia, but I know of not one Christian that worships Paul of Tarsus or any other Paul. We do absolutely worship Jesus though. He is God. Paul is just a preacher to the Gentiles.

It is time for Christians to realize that this menace of secular morality being put upon them IN the Church is now a very serious issue.

Christians who are hell bent on using Jesus as fodder for hatred can certainly do whatever they so desire.

Yawn! The hate charge is as worn out as an old Ford Pinto.

I would personally reject any such church as being nothing more than hateful bigots who actually hate Jesus just as much as they hate everyone else.

Hateful, haters, of hatefulness? A mantra if ever I heard one. I've read Alinsky through and through.

I'm actually glad to see such hateful forms of Christianity because they are writing their their own death certificate for their hateful cults.

The Romans thought the same way 2000-years ago.

Decent people will avoid them like the plague, and since humanity is naturally evolving to become more decent all the time these hate cults will eventually die out. In fact, we are seeing this transformation right before our very eyes.

We are seeing a transformation alright. Nothing to do with Christian truth. You are right about that.

The hatred and bigotry of Christianity will soon take a back seat to decency and humanity can finally move forward into an age of true wisdom and genuine brotherly love and true morality.

You have the propaganda thing down pat.

Jesus himself would probably be the happiest person in all of history to see Christianity finally die. This religion has been an embarrassment to him for far too long already.

I'd bet a serious amount of money that no non or anti Christian here will report your violation of the rules in that statement.

Watcha think?

By the way, your comments are one reason why I wrote the OP.

[Goat]

Divine Insight

He said to not judge unless you are prepared to face the same charges for doing the same thing. You lookmto be putting some kind of hippy free love taint to the Gospels. That doesn't seem to be warrneted from looking at how Jesus dealt with things IN the Gospels.

I disagree. There is no justification in anything Jesus taught for you to be judging others in his name.

Well, the record of the New Testament says otherwise. Jesus too in the Gospels.

You mean, with such words as 'you who are without sin, cast the first stone?'. You mean, words like that?

[99percentatheism]

Divine Insight

He said to not judge unless you are prepared to face the same charges for doing the same thing. You lookmto be putting some kind of hippy free love taint to the Gospels. That doesn't seem to be warrneted from looking at how Jesus dealt with things IN the Gospels.

I disagree. There is no justification in anything Jesus taught for you to be judging others in his name.

Well, the record of the New Testament says otherwise. Jesus too in the Gospels.

You mean, with such words as 'you who are without sin, cast the first stone?'. You mean, words like that?

And?

"Go, and sin no more."

In fact, I haven't read one place in the Gospels/New Testament that advises believers to promote, support or celebrate sin and sinning. OR, anything anywhere that could even be hinted at to support anything about LGBT sexual behavior as acceptable.

If you have any scriptures from any New Testament that clearly and openly encourages homosexuality then by all means present it.

[Star]

^ The Bible was more into slavery and rape of barely-pubescent girls.

At least it was heterosexual child molestation, thank goodness.

[micatala]

Not very smart are they? That probably explains their hatred and bigotry of anything they disagree with.

The hateful versions of christians are being challenged by all of christianity and in fact humanity and it just seems to increase their hatred for humanity.

Moderator Comment

Please avoid this kind of disparaging, emotionally laden terminology, especially referring to a whole group as bigots.

Please review the Rules.


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[KCKID]

You mean, with such words as 'you who are without sin, cast the first stone?'. You mean, words like that?

And?

"Go, and sin no more."

From a scriptural perspective there is NO ONE that lives their life by not 'sinning', 99percent, and that includes you. Only when YOU don't sin any more are you allowed to use that text. So, please don't continually use that part of the "neither do I condemn you" scripture simply to support your own agenda! When you do so the only ones you're fooling are the foolish. If you must draw attention to any part of that scripture then stick to the part where Jesus sends the hypocrites on their way with their tails between their legs . . .

In fact, I haven't read one place in the Gospels/New Testament that advises believers to promote, support or celebrate sin and sinning. OR, anything anywhere that could even be hinted at to support anything about LGBT sexual behavior as acceptable.

I realize that when you left atheism you apparently found a book and mistook it for Jesus, 99percent. However, for what it's worth, human beings are much more than the sum total of words from your book.

If you have any scriptures from any New Testament that clearly and openly encourages homosexuality then by all means present it.

Here I go again. There is no place in the New Testament that clearly and openly encourages divorce and remarriage but that doesn't prevent it from occurring in "Your Church", does it, 99percent? And, guess what? No one bats an eye!

[10CC]

[Replying to post 14 by 99percentatheism]

Do you take your over/under to church on sundays to kill all them queens what invade gods place? Why doesn't god use them almost all powerful angels to smite them with their fluffy swords, or was that fiery? Now EXACTLY how many of these dangerous homosexuals terrorists actually attack churches every sunday?

Don't forget to say grace.

How are you justified in placing violence in my positions and directed at me personally?

You should do your side a favor and apologize to me.

Well with comprehension skills like this it's no wonder you preach what you preach.

Otherwise here's how Jesus taught us to deal with unsavory issues in the Church:

Jesus told them another parable:

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owners servants came to him and said, Sir, didnt you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

An enemy did this, he replied.

The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up?

No, he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

- Matthew 13

We are to notice and point out the weeds (read Jude). But it God's harvesters that will pull them up and discard them where they belong.

I just strive to stay in good soil. And theologically, like a good neighbor, point out where it is.

[99percentatheism]

KCKID

You mean, with such words as 'you who are without sin, cast the first stone?'. You mean, words like that?

And?

"Go, and sin no more."

From a scriptural perspective there is NO ONE that lives their life by not 'sinning', 99percent, and that includes you.

See, you can present scripture accurately. Good. You're on your way on the straight and narrow path. Or at least you can discern it.

But, are we to celebrate our sins and sinning? Are we to encourage sin and sinning? Are we to hold unrepentant sinners as leaders and influential people?

Since you got the above theology right, I left you with only one answer. No.

Only when YOU don't sin any more are you allowed to use that text.

Well, you must have never looked up any of the scriptures I referenced. It seems they do not agree with your opinion. I am though, agreeing with scripture. That includes the quotes attributed to Jesus.

So, please don't continually use that part of the "neither do I condemn you" scripture simply to support your own agenda!

I'm not a kettle theologically there KID. But your apologia theologically is certainly a pot.

When you do so the only ones you're fooling are the foolish.

I have showe3d consistently that I am not supporting anything secular. So the foolish charge doesn't fit my apologia. On the other hand, when a theological position is the exact same as a humanist position, there you will find foolishness in yoking.

If you must draw attention to any part of that scripture then stick to the part where Jesus sends the hypocrites on their way with their tails between their legs . . .

Obviously I do. Reread the OP. This thread is about not wasting time on hypocrites that refuse to repent. Just single them out and avoid them. I like what the Pope says about gays and abortion. His theology is in the right place but his moment in time may not be.

In fact, I haven't read one place in the Gospels/New Testament that advises believers to promote, support or celebrate sin and sinning. OR, anything anywhere that could even be hinted at to support anything about LGBT sexual behavior as acceptable.

I realize that when you left atheism you apparently found a book and mistook it for Jesus, 99percent. However, for what it's worth, human beings are much more than the sum total of words from your book.

The Gospels and Acts is where we are presented Jesus. Note, that He isn't in the DSM V, or the Humanist Manifesto.

My sum total shows the right answer to dealing with LGBT activism in The Church. Read Jude again.

If you have any scriptures from any New Testament that clearly and openly encourages homosexuality then by all means present it.

Here I go again. There is no place in the New Testament that clearly and openly encourages divorce and remarriage but that doesn't prevent it from occurring in "Your Church", does it, 99percent? And, guess what? No one bats an eye!

So you finally agree with me.

Thank you

[99percentatheism]

10CC

[Replying to post 14 by 99percentatheism]

Do you take your over/under to church on sundays to kill all them queens what invade gods place? Why doesn't god use them almost all powerful angels to smite them with their fluffy swords, or was that fiery? Now EXACTLY how many of these dangerous homosexuals terrorists actually attack churches every sunday?

Don't forget to say grace.

How are you justified in placing violence in my positions and directed at me personally?

You should do your side a favor and apologize to me.

Well with comprehension skills like this it's no wonder you preach what you preach.

More vitriol. How unsurprising.

Otherwise here's how Jesus taught us to deal with unsavory issues in the Church:

Jesus told them another parable:

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owners servants came to him and said, Sir, didnt you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

An enemy did this, he replied.

The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up?

No, he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

- Matthew 13

We are to notice and point out the weeds (read Jude). But it God's harvesters that will pull them up and discard them where they belong.

I just strive to stay in good soil. And theologically, like a good neighbor, point out where it is.

[/quote]


What no insult 10CC?

I would prefer you to just answer the OP theologically and show us your academic side.

[10CC]

10CC

[Replying to post 14 by 99percentatheism]

Do you take your over/under to church on sundays to kill all them queens what invade gods place? Why doesn't god use them almost all powerful angels to smite them with their fluffy swords, or was that fiery? Now EXACTLY how many of these dangerous homosexuals terrorists actually attack churches every sunday?

Don't forget to say grace.

How are you justified in placing violence in my positions and directed at me personally?

You should do your side a favor and apologize to me.

Well with comprehension skills like this it's no wonder you preach what you preach.

More vitriol. How unsurprising.

Otherwise here's how Jesus taught us to deal with unsavory issues in the Church:

Jesus told them another parable:

The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

The owners servants came to him and said, Sir, didnt you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?

An enemy did this, he replied.

The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up?

No, he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.

- Matthew 13

We are to notice and point out the weeds (read Jude). But it God's harvesters that will pull them up and discard them where they belong.

I just strive to stay in good soil. And theologically, like a good neighbor, point out where it is.

What no insult 10CC?

I would prefer you to just answer the OP theologically and show us your academic side.[/quote]

Well with comprehension skills like this it's no wonder you preach what you preach.