How is God not responsible for the harm caused by Satan?

[lostguest]

If God created Satan and was fully aware of the harm he wanted to cause to humanity, why would he allow him to exist, gave him "super powers" and let him loose first in the Garden of Eden and then in the world.
Here's an analogy: if a person owns a vicious dog and is fully aware of the animal's capacity to cause injury, shouldn't that person be directly responsible for any damage the animal causes if he fails to either restrain or destroy the animal. Now imagine what would anyone say if that same dog owner purposely released that dog in a room full of children and locked the doors and windows?
How is this example different from God and his vicious pet Satan?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

From memory (I'm on the train)

Satan says to God - Job wouldn't love you if you stopped protecting him.

So God removes his protection of Job. Then Satan chooses to be evil towards Job.

So there is no evidence God orders Satan to hurt Job. Satan chooses to be evil.

While GOD does initiate the situation with Satan by asking "8 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."" and does indeed remove HIS protection, the lessons to be learned are:

1. Satan was set up to expose his evil attitude against even the best of us, a man who was "blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." It is this proof that only the restraining hand of GOD keeps anyone safe from Satan and necessitates his banishment to hell because he will never change.

2. Since we know that GOD is loving, then we question how GOD could turn Satan loose on Job even to prove to all the world how evil Satan is. The doctrine that no innocents suffer carries us to accept that though Job is said to have lived a very pure life on earth, he was still a sinner as he admits at the end, which implies 1. that it is not life on earth that makes one a sinner but probably life pre-earth in sheol, and 2. that living a perfectly religious life (works) is not enough to redeem you and make you heaven ready, that is, no more suffering.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

If a judge let's a prisoner out of prison and the prisoner commits another crime is the judge guilty of the crime?

No, the prisoner is quilty of that crime. The judge is guilty of another, something along the lines of criminal negligence.

In the same way, God is sovereign and therefore responsible, but not guilty for our sins.

And in the same way, God is guilty of his own sins?

Wrong premises:

The righteous judge let no one out of prison for earth IS the prison and neither is the Judge responsible for crimes by one inmate against another, especially as there is a protective custody rehab ward for those who have earned it, living with less psychopathic inmates.

Peace, Ted

[ttruscott]

What's not being taken into consideration on the previous few posts with analogies about the devil and Job or the judge who releases the criminal...

Same thing with the judge analogy. Judges are supposed to release criminals under the assumption that they have rehabilitated, have repented from their crimes and do not plan to continue their criminal behavior. A judge who releases a criminal before his term is complete knowing that the criminal is not rehabilitated and intends to cause harm once he is free should be indirectly responsible for the criminal's actions.

Where did this idea that a criminal was released? Where was Satan put in prison? When was he supposedly released, especially before time served???

Are they based upon the unproven idea that we are the good an polite society so if Satan is among us, he must have gotten out of his prison somehow? Does this not ignore the Christian doctrine (since it is the Christian GOD who is being blamed for this improper release) that only sinners (all sin is of equal and ultimate disvalue) are born on earth and that supports the idea the Earth is the prison and we are all inmates for our evil and Satan is just another prisoner like all of us?

It's the same with the devil. As God's sworn enemy, God should know that by giving the devil, power, freedom and authority, he would be allowing a lot of harm into humanity and thus becomes responsible for it. In fact, God's case with the devil is even worse than the judge releasing the criminal. It's more like a judge releasing a criminal and giving him a arsenal of weapons and a license to use them.

Since this thread has become an opinion piece with no proof needed, I'll give my opinion as a Christian who cares nothing for being pc. I have scripture to support most of this as proper Christian dogma but I know it is oft ignored so I'll wait for those who might be interested to ask... Please do not get hung up on the failures of the analogy and argue agains the analogy as if that proved something about reality.

There is a rehab centre in the prison to cure HIS sinful elect from their addiction to evil exemplified in their idolatry of the satanic fallen over HIS judgment of them. This is achieved by proving (opening their eyes) to HIS sinful elect that they are in fact evil and causing great suffering to others to bring them to repentance. Then by allowing satan to fulfill some of his evil desires HE also proves to the sinful elect that Satan and his people cannot be reformed, he will never repent and he must be banished to hell. Thus, as part of the sentence of every sinner in prison earth, HE allows satan to do his dirty deeds in perfect proportion to the sinful elect's needs to be brought to rejection of sin and suffering and therefore to side with GOD against him.

Judgement isn't against an individual so that one sinner may be passed over while another is sent to hell. The judgment will be upon all evil at the same time so any elect still in his sins would be judged with the tares at that time. This is against HIS promise of election so HE must fulfill their salvation and sanctification before the judgment can be called.

This means that the prison is a holding prison containing those who can be rehabilitated and those who cannot. Only the rehabilitated, (those saved from sin and judgment by becoming heaven ready), are ever let free to enter the heavenly state. Those unable to be rehabbed will go on to further banishment to hell at the judgment upon them when the last sinful elect chooses to become holy.

So, in summation: if you are human, you are a prisoner with satan et al. The only way out of Prison Earth is to become holy and eligible to enter heaven. Prison Earth is ended when it is emptied by the banishment of all those who cannot become holy to hell.

Peace, Ted

[OnceConvinced]

Satan was created as ingenuously innocent as everyone else and I contend that GOD did not know who would chose what by their free will.p

Interesting. Sounds very human of God, being ignorant of something. Most Christians claim him to be all knowing and omniscient. I take it you don't?

[Replying to post 1 by lostguest]

If a judge let's a prisoner out of prison and the prisoner commits another crime is the judge guilty of the crime?

In the same way, God is sovereign and therefore responsible, but not guilty for our sins.

Is a human judge all knowing? If he was he would not let the criminal free unless he was apathetic, malevolent or incompetent.

Furthermore did the Judge knowingly create the person who committed the crime, knowing what a monster he would become??

You analogy just doesnt work. God created this being, knowing what he would become and did nothing to change his design to prevent it from happening.

Or do you too believe that God was ignorant when he created Satan?

[ttruscott]

Satan was created as ingenuously innocent as everyone else and I contend that GOD did not know who would chose what by their free will.p

Interesting. Sounds very human of God, being ignorant of something. Most Christians claim him to be all knowing and omniscient. I take it you don't?

Since the pagan Greek philosophical definition of omniscience of GOD is from HIS nature from eternity past to eternity future leads directly to the belief that HE knew before HE created them who would end in hell but created them anyway, I reject it as a blasphemy against GOD's good nature as loving and holy and scorn orthodoxy for accepting this into their dogma.

I define HIS omniscience from the Bible:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
This limits HIS omniscience to 'all HIS works' and it started at 'the beginning of the world.' All HIS works describe HIS creative decrees and their continuing consequences and effects.

Therefore if HE did not decree something into creation, HE did not know it...and I contend HE did not decree the results of our true free will decisions so HE did not know what those results would be until we decided them for our selves.

Peace, Ted

[justforme]

[Replying to post 23 by OnceConvinced]
post. 23

I have no idea where you came up with your thoughts that God created monsters, but you are way off.
louise

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 23 by OnceConvinced]
post. 23

I have no idea where you came up with your thoughts that God created monsters, but you are way off.
louise

While I agree, I would like to see how you come to your conclusion and would encourage you to add such things to your answers,

peace, Ted

[justforme]

[Replying to post 23 by OnceConvinced]
post. 23

I have no idea where you came up with your thoughts that God created monsters, but you are way off.
louise

While I agree, I would like to see how you come to your conclusion and would encourage you to add such things to your answers,quote

proving it is quite simple.
I can remember my first years when I was playing without an angry thought in my head. After some experiences with my parents my angry thoughts started
that is when darkness entered my thoughts. God creates HIs children pure in their souls..

We are born innocent, then corrupted and evil enters. God does not create the evil that enters, we do it to ourselves..
The purpose for satan is to tempt us causing us to wake us up from our comfort zones,
is this clear. I am not a wordy person, I only know anything is from my experiences.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 25 by justforme]

Clearly you and Ted are not seeing my point.

Imagine this scenario if you will. Tonight you are going to have sex and you are going to conceive a wonderful beautiful child. However you also have foreknowledge that this child is later going to be come a horrific child rapist, torturer and murderer. All you have to do is not have sex tonight and you will not concieve this child ever. Have sex tomorrow night and you'll concieve a completely different child. Would you have sex tonight and concieve that child?

I'm betting as a loving caring person that I hope you are, that you will delay having sex that night and wait for tomorrow night instead, because you would never want to unleash such a horror onto innocent children. And you would know you would have to take some kind of responsibility for unleasing that monster on society, because you KNEW what he would become.

God KNEW when he created Lucifer what Lucifer would become (far worse than the child rapist/torturer/murderer) but yet he created Lucifer anyway. He KNOWINGLY created this being knowing what he woudl become. That makes him worse that Lucifer himself!

Of course if God had no idea that Lucifer was going to be come such a monster, then that's fine. God was ignorant and you can't blame someone for being ignorant like that. But it certainly wouldn't make him much of a God, would it?

Is your God ignorant, or is he all knowing? Which one?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 23 by OnceConvinced]
post. 23

I have no idea where you came up with your thoughts that God created monsters, but you are way off.
louise

While I agree, I would like to see how you come to your conclusion and would encourage you to add such things to your answers,quote

proving it is quite simple.
I can remember my first years when I was playing without an angry thought in my head. After some experiences with my parents my angry thoughts started
that is when darkness entered my thoughts. God creates HIs children pure in their souls..

We are born innocent, then corrupted and evil enters. God does not create the evil that enters, we do it to ourselves..
The purpose for satan is to tempt us causing us to wake us up from our comfort zones,
is this clear. I am not a wordy person, I only know anything is from my experiences.

This is all very well if you have no idea about what your unleashing onto mankind. Parents have no idea about what their kids are gonna turn out like. God however, is supposed to be all-knowing so knew full well what Lucifer was going to turn out to be, but yet he created him. Therefore he takes FULL accountability for the existance of Satan. If it were not for God, Satan would not exist and the mess that occurred would never have happened. God was either malevolent, incompetent or ignorant.

Can you not see my point I am making? See my previous analogy and maybe you will understand what I am getting at.

Perhaps a different analogy? You create a robot that will turn into a psychotic maniac if the wrong oil is applied to its joints. You would be held accountable for creating your robot with such a terrible flaw, wouldn't you? As guilty as the robot is for commiting psychotic acts, you are the one who programmed it to be a certain way.

Remember the bible tells us that when we are concieved he "knits us together in our mother's womb". (Psa 139:13 ) Thus every little defect is fully planned. Backed up by Exodus 4:11 and John 9: 1-3.

It also says that it is him that creates evil! (Isaiah 45:7) A clear reference to beings that are apparently born innocent, which later turn into monsters.