Foreknowledge and Free Will
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The Tanager
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Foreknowledge and Free Will
Post #1I'm wondering what people here think of foreknowledge and free will. I've come across many people who feel that having knowledge of the future means that people cannot have free will. I don't see how that would necessarily be the case. I could (hypothetically, through time travel or whatever) know what your grandchildren will do on a certain date without actually making them make that choice. It would be more like me skipping ahead in watching a movie, rather than being the writer or director of the movie. But, often, people connect the two and believe that, if the future can be known that means one does not have control over their own life. What do you all think?
Post #21
The mere fact that Christianity requires an evil satanic God only goes to show that it's just as polytheistic as any other Pagan religion.
It does not “require� any such thing….his being the Elohim (as are also judges, kings, etc.) are people with power of rulership we give them over us, to whom we obey and bow to…
In fact, the demigod Jesus would be meaningless if not for Satan. Therefore Satan gives meaning to Jesus. You must first believe in Satan before you even need to believe in Jesus. Satan must come first. You must place Satan before Jesus which is yet another contradiction in this religion.
No that order of angelic beings has a will just like humans…he was not required or had to be (nor was he) first….but the LORD knew what he would do before he did it and knew how He would resolve the problem before he rebelled. Christ was the solution the problem was inevitable. COULD God have created a creation where every little detail was preset, fatalistically predetermined like a grand puppet master? Yes of course but had He done that love and obedience would be meaningless. True love and relationship must be an act of the will to be genuine and this was after all was the intent He had in mind.
In fact, before it even makes sense to have "faith" in Jesus you must first have "faith" that Satan exists and is real.
Not at all….perhaps this is a root of your particular problem with the while idea. For me, it was a slow transition from my agnosticism (that had been ingrained). I actually had experiences (a couple among groups of other mixed peoples) that can only be explained as super or supra natural (outside of the natural order and not explicable by materialistic means). This led me first to a position that there was definitely and undoubtedly more to this reality than pure materialism, then I realized “beyond what we call natural� is real (though I know all do not nor have not experienced such things), then eventually I sought an explanation in mysticism and religious explanation and eventually God sought me (me fully resisting for a couple years) and then I began to see the problem and only one solution was offered and I took it and now I am a new creature (not of the order of the first Adam)….and I work for Him.
you must also believe that there is a Father God who is out to condemn you.
Again way off (you really should read it for yourself not just thinking up criticisms)…the Father tells us straight forward He takes no pleasure in the condemnation of the wicked….He spends our whole life trying to get our attention trying to show His love….even in Christ
Just read these PLEASE….with an open mind….
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world (not for God was so angry at the world) that He gave His only begotten Son…
Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us (not His wrath) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. This Christ’s death was an action of the love of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath (we are children of “orge� – children of anger, and natural disposition, temper, indignation, agitation – this speaks of our character, not God’s anger at us because of a sense of a need to satisfy His justice), just as the others.
4 But God (now we address His attitude toward us), who IS rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (loved as in past tense – while we were in our sins -notice it says nothing off His vehement hatred or anger at us), 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us (not wrath toward us)in Christ Jesus.
1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us (while we were still in out sin He loved us, and was not filled with wrath toward us).
It is in his love and in his pity that he redeemed us. Did we deserve this love? No! We were children of orge (disobedience)…we were indignant, obstinate, of natural disposition focused on the whims of the flesh and the will of our own minds. So though He died on behalf of all mankind (making the ransom available for all) and wills (prefers) all men everywhere be saved, not all individuals will be saved because most will reject His gift of grace given to restore, redeem, reconcile (the Lord Jesus who loved us so much He willfully laid down His life).
It does not “require� any such thing….his being the Elohim (as are also judges, kings, etc.) are people with power of rulership we give them over us, to whom we obey and bow to…
In fact, the demigod Jesus would be meaningless if not for Satan. Therefore Satan gives meaning to Jesus. You must first believe in Satan before you even need to believe in Jesus. Satan must come first. You must place Satan before Jesus which is yet another contradiction in this religion.
No that order of angelic beings has a will just like humans…he was not required or had to be (nor was he) first….but the LORD knew what he would do before he did it and knew how He would resolve the problem before he rebelled. Christ was the solution the problem was inevitable. COULD God have created a creation where every little detail was preset, fatalistically predetermined like a grand puppet master? Yes of course but had He done that love and obedience would be meaningless. True love and relationship must be an act of the will to be genuine and this was after all was the intent He had in mind.
In fact, before it even makes sense to have "faith" in Jesus you must first have "faith" that Satan exists and is real.
Not at all….perhaps this is a root of your particular problem with the while idea. For me, it was a slow transition from my agnosticism (that had been ingrained). I actually had experiences (a couple among groups of other mixed peoples) that can only be explained as super or supra natural (outside of the natural order and not explicable by materialistic means). This led me first to a position that there was definitely and undoubtedly more to this reality than pure materialism, then I realized “beyond what we call natural� is real (though I know all do not nor have not experienced such things), then eventually I sought an explanation in mysticism and religious explanation and eventually God sought me (me fully resisting for a couple years) and then I began to see the problem and only one solution was offered and I took it and now I am a new creature (not of the order of the first Adam)….and I work for Him.
you must also believe that there is a Father God who is out to condemn you.
Again way off (you really should read it for yourself not just thinking up criticisms)…the Father tells us straight forward He takes no pleasure in the condemnation of the wicked….He spends our whole life trying to get our attention trying to show His love….even in Christ
Just read these PLEASE….with an open mind….
Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver ( to snatch away, rescue, save) them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world (not for God was so angry at the world) that He gave His only begotten Son…
Romans 5:8 But God shows his love for us (not His wrath) in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. This Christ’s death was an action of the love of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath (we are children of “orge� – children of anger, and natural disposition, temper, indignation, agitation – this speaks of our character, not God’s anger at us because of a sense of a need to satisfy His justice), just as the others.
4 But God (now we address His attitude toward us), who IS rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us (loved as in past tense – while we were in our sins -notice it says nothing off His vehement hatred or anger at us), 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us (not wrath toward us)in Christ Jesus.
1 John 4:19 - We love Him because He first loved us (while we were still in out sin He loved us, and was not filled with wrath toward us).
It is in his love and in his pity that he redeemed us. Did we deserve this love? No! We were children of orge (disobedience)…we were indignant, obstinate, of natural disposition focused on the whims of the flesh and the will of our own minds. So though He died on behalf of all mankind (making the ransom available for all) and wills (prefers) all men everywhere be saved, not all individuals will be saved because most will reject His gift of grace given to restore, redeem, reconcile (the Lord Jesus who loved us so much He willfully laid down His life).
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bluethread
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Post #22
Excuse me for interrupting your discussion. Even though I agree with most of what you are saying, I think that "free will" may very well be an illusion, albeit one which we must accept given our limited prospective, could you please provide the passage that Adonai prefers that all men everywhere be saved? I ask not because I doubt it's existence, I just seem to recall there being something more in that passage that puts it's universal application in doubt. It does sound familiar, I just can't place it at the moment.pshun2404 wrote: So though He died on behalf of all mankind (making the ransom available for all) and wills (prefers) all men everywhere be saved, not all individuals will be saved because most will reject His gift of grace given to restore, redeem, reconcile (the Lord Jesus who loved us so much He willfully laid down His life).
Post #23
[Replying to bluethread]
Sure here are a few to consider.....this does not mean EVERY PERSON will be saved because when prompted by God we must respond appropriately (while having the option to reject God and the knowledge of Him but if we insist on going our own way continually He will give us over to the reprobation of our minds)
1 Timothy 2 tells us 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'
John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The Lord bless
Paul
Sure here are a few to consider.....this does not mean EVERY PERSON will be saved because when prompted by God we must respond appropriately (while having the option to reject God and the knowledge of Him but if we insist on going our own way continually He will give us over to the reprobation of our minds)
1 Timothy 2 tells us 3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'
John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
The Lord bless
Paul
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Divine Insight
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Post #24
Can you demonstrate with any actual "evidence" that what you claim here has any truth in it at all?pshun2404 wrote: He spends our whole life trying to get our attention trying to show His love….even in Christ
Quoting empty claims from ancient fables isn't impressive.
I have tried to contact a "God" my entire life with absolutely no convincing or compelling results. If there was a "God" who was actually trying to get my attention or wanted to have a meaningful relationship with me he had more than enough opportunities.
In fact, my door is wide open to this very day. Jesus is more than welcome to show me that he's real. What's stopping him? Certainly not me!
What do you expect me to do PRETEND that something happened when in fact it didn't? That would be dishonest. That would be asking me to live a lie.
Why are you begging me to read ancient Hebrew folklore? I thought the God of this folklore is the one who is supposed to want to have a relationship with me. This seems to be far more important to you than to him.pshun2404 wrote: Just read these PLEASE….with an open mind….
Also, I have read every single verse that you had posted there. In fact, I've read the Bible many times over. I've even listened to it on audio CD. A direct narration precisely was written in the Bible. And I've done this many different times from many different viewpoint.
There is nothing in any of this that sounds to me like anything more than a bunch of religious zealots.
Moreover, if there actually existed a decent "God" there is no reason at all why that God couldn't just drop in my home and have a cup of tea with me, or perhaps a glass of wine in the case of Jesus.
There is no reason why this God would not have accepted and embraced my invitations to have a relationship with him.
I can't twist the arm of God. If there exists a God it is the God who refuses to have a relationship with me, certainly not the other way around.
There is no excuse for a God who refuses to answer when called.
Jesus himself would be an extreme liar if he ever dared to proclaim that I refused to asked him to come into my life. That would be the greatest lie ever told.
If Jesus wants to have a relationship with me then it's entirely his fault that he has rejected ever opportunity to do so.
He would be a liar if he claimed otherwise.
This God cannot possibly condemn me for refusing to ask him to come into my life. Because that charge would be totally bogus and a filthy lie.
Supposedly God can't lie.
This God would need to be the most dishonest, evil, and deceitful deity if he dared to claim that I refused to have a relationship with him. Nothing could be further from the truth.
What YOU are asking me to do is to PRETEND to have a relationship where there is none!
I can't have a relationship with a God until that God makes himself known to me. Until then there can be no "relationship", all there can be is dishonest pretense on my part. And why should I be asked to be dishonest and pretentious?
That's not right.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
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ttruscott
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Post #25
This implies that GODis a monster who created those He knew would enter into eternal torment and all HE has to do to save them from eternal suffering is to not create them but He creates them anyway...pshun2404 wrote:
...
No that order of angelic beings has a will just like humans…he was not required or had to be (nor was he) first….but the LORD knew what he would do before he did it and knew how He would resolve the problem before he rebelled.
...
It is completely opposite 'GOD is love' and 'GOD is holy', that is, dedicated to HIMself as a righteous being. That the big 3 sects all accept this blasphemy is atrocious.
Peace, Ted
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Post #26
Can you demonstrate with any actual "evidence" that what you claim here has any truth in it at all?
I guess that really depends on what YOU will accept as “actual evidence� since you will not accept the real life testimonies of millions of transformed people….(now not all who wear the tag “Christian� are actually Christ’…I gave the example in another thread of the unrepentant pedophile priests who are children of Belial, wolves in sheep’s clothing)
So please share how you define “actual evidence� for what I said?
I have tried to contact a "God" my entire life with absolutely no convincing or compelling results. If there was a "God" who was actually trying to get my attention or wanted to have a meaningful relationship with me he had more than enough opportunities.
I hear you saying this and I’m sure you think you are sincere but I sense your invitation was more of a challenge, Don’t you remember when you were small and your mom was really sick and you asked Him to make her well? He did, didn’t He…of just a coincidence…perhaps it was the medicine…
He use to speak to you in your spirit when you were young (kind of like your conscience but deeper inside). As time went by and you were indoctrinated you drowned Him out. Maybe you did not know His voice? When your best friend calls you know instantly don’t you…you know what they sound like, what they think like, what they like to do and wish you would or would not do, you trust this IS your friend even though they are not right there in front of you….you know them this well because in a way you have spent much time with them and in a sense you love them, trust them, and mutually care about them.
So share with me what you will consider “actual evidence� of what I said in the previous post….evidence that He loves you? The best is that He would become flesh and give Himself for you that you could escape the place where all who reject Him must go because they die in their sins (and we are all sinners…no one is more aware of their unworthiness than a really spiritual person).
In fact, my door is wide open to this very day. Jesus is more than welcome to show me that he's real. What's stopping him? Certainly not me!
Actually it is! If I said your dad was a fairy tale, bugs bunny or something, you would say, but he was real person come in the flesh who actually did real things in real time….so has my Father….you would say that because you never saw Him (though some have) or heard Him (though some have) or BELIEV the things He has done (like your dad) that I must either be a liar or deluded (then so are you regarding your father)…so what constitutes for you real evidence for you?
What do you expect me to do PRETEND that something happened when in fact it didn't?
What that Jesus was a real historical person who had a goal of being killed and talked of it before it happened and had many witnesses, and was indeed crucified? Or do you mean that you tried and nothing happened to YOU? This is not clear!
Why are you begging me to read ancient Hebrew folklore? I thought the God of this folklore is the one who is supposed to want to have a relationship with me. This seems to be far more important to you than to him.
Look, I assume you are a scientifically oriented person, So if you had an experiment that had been done over and over, in order to get the same results you would have to take the same steps, right? Follow the same set of protocols, right? And if you left out a part or step or decided you will just do it your way and then did not get the same results, would you say the results others repeatedly got that were the same were a myth, they are making it up?
Do what He says, His way, and you will get the same results…then you will never be able to deny it is real….its that simple…thats what I did and I cannot deny Him anymore than I can deny my own mother. In fact for me He is more real and more important than my mother, my wife, my children....I love them so much I would die for them but if it was any of them OR God, they would have to go...
But okay! I understand, and no I would not want you to pretend…if you cannot or will not do His thing His way I can promise you nothing....if I did not build a cold trap device to capture my wrong handed amino acids they would just denature (just like Miller and Urey's before they intelligently designed their device).
I guess that really depends on what YOU will accept as “actual evidence� since you will not accept the real life testimonies of millions of transformed people….(now not all who wear the tag “Christian� are actually Christ’…I gave the example in another thread of the unrepentant pedophile priests who are children of Belial, wolves in sheep’s clothing)
So please share how you define “actual evidence� for what I said?
I have tried to contact a "God" my entire life with absolutely no convincing or compelling results. If there was a "God" who was actually trying to get my attention or wanted to have a meaningful relationship with me he had more than enough opportunities.
I hear you saying this and I’m sure you think you are sincere but I sense your invitation was more of a challenge, Don’t you remember when you were small and your mom was really sick and you asked Him to make her well? He did, didn’t He…of just a coincidence…perhaps it was the medicine…
He use to speak to you in your spirit when you were young (kind of like your conscience but deeper inside). As time went by and you were indoctrinated you drowned Him out. Maybe you did not know His voice? When your best friend calls you know instantly don’t you…you know what they sound like, what they think like, what they like to do and wish you would or would not do, you trust this IS your friend even though they are not right there in front of you….you know them this well because in a way you have spent much time with them and in a sense you love them, trust them, and mutually care about them.
So share with me what you will consider “actual evidence� of what I said in the previous post….evidence that He loves you? The best is that He would become flesh and give Himself for you that you could escape the place where all who reject Him must go because they die in their sins (and we are all sinners…no one is more aware of their unworthiness than a really spiritual person).
In fact, my door is wide open to this very day. Jesus is more than welcome to show me that he's real. What's stopping him? Certainly not me!
Actually it is! If I said your dad was a fairy tale, bugs bunny or something, you would say, but he was real person come in the flesh who actually did real things in real time….so has my Father….you would say that because you never saw Him (though some have) or heard Him (though some have) or BELIEV the things He has done (like your dad) that I must either be a liar or deluded (then so are you regarding your father)…so what constitutes for you real evidence for you?
What do you expect me to do PRETEND that something happened when in fact it didn't?
What that Jesus was a real historical person who had a goal of being killed and talked of it before it happened and had many witnesses, and was indeed crucified? Or do you mean that you tried and nothing happened to YOU? This is not clear!
Why are you begging me to read ancient Hebrew folklore? I thought the God of this folklore is the one who is supposed to want to have a relationship with me. This seems to be far more important to you than to him.
Look, I assume you are a scientifically oriented person, So if you had an experiment that had been done over and over, in order to get the same results you would have to take the same steps, right? Follow the same set of protocols, right? And if you left out a part or step or decided you will just do it your way and then did not get the same results, would you say the results others repeatedly got that were the same were a myth, they are making it up?
Do what He says, His way, and you will get the same results…then you will never be able to deny it is real….its that simple…thats what I did and I cannot deny Him anymore than I can deny my own mother. In fact for me He is more real and more important than my mother, my wife, my children....I love them so much I would die for them but if it was any of them OR God, they would have to go...
But okay! I understand, and no I would not want you to pretend…if you cannot or will not do His thing His way I can promise you nothing....if I did not build a cold trap device to capture my wrong handed amino acids they would just denature (just like Miller and Urey's before they intelligently designed their device).
Post #27
[Replying to post 25 by ttruscott]
Ted, right below you answered your own accusation...you say
GOD did not need evil to fulfill HIS plan and did not create evil or evil people for any reason. - All evil is creature-created by their true free will.
Your words are sound here....God cannot be blamed for their evil
Paul
Ted, right below you answered your own accusation...you say
GOD did not need evil to fulfill HIS plan and did not create evil or evil people for any reason. - All evil is creature-created by their true free will.
Your words are sound here....God cannot be blamed for their evil
Paul
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Post #28
Well, if the only "evidence" that you have to offer is the real life testimonies of millions of "transformed" people then all I require is my very own real life experience in this regard.pshun2404 wrote: Can you demonstrate with any actual "evidence" that what you claim here has any truth in it at all?
I guess that really depends on what YOU will accept as “actual evidence� since you will not accept the real life testimonies of millions of transformed people….(now not all who wear the tag “Christian� are actually Christ’…I gave the example in another thread of the unrepentant pedophile priests who are children of Belial, wolves in sheep’s clothing)
So please share how you define “actual evidence� for what I said?
After all, if it could happen to millions of other people, then why shouldn't it also happen to me? Why should I have to go by other people's claims of being "transformed"?
And besides, many of those testimonies are given by people who were supposedly "transformed" from real losers into becoming what they claim to now be half-decent people. For example, they were addicted to porn, or drugs, or alcohol abuse, or gambling, or having committed crimes that they didn't even seem to think were necessarily "wrong" prior to their so-called "transformation".
You'll have to excuse me if none of those scenarios apply to me. I can't imagine what I would need to be "transformed" from. I'm quite happy with myself just as I am and I don't have any nasty addictions to be "transformed" from.
In fact, when I read the Bible and consider the moral values attributed to Jesus all I can say is, "Now there's a guy who apparently agrees with me". At least for the most part.
I just don't see where I need to be "transformed". Transformed into what?
Moreover, I already was a "Christian" (and in a very real sense I still am depending on how you want to define "Christian"). I had already asked Jesus to come into my life and fix up anything that he thinks is wrong. So I should have already been "transformed".
If there were any truth to real life transformation experiences I should have already had mine many decades ago.
So if there were any truth to your claims I should have already experienced this myself.
Excuse me? This is preaching of the highest order.pshun2404 wrote: I have tried to contact a "God" my entire life with absolutely no convincing or compelling results. If there was a "God" who was actually trying to get my attention or wanted to have a meaningful relationship with me he had more than enough opportunities.
I hear you saying this and I’m sure you think you are sincere but I sense your invitation was more of a challenge, Don’t you remember when you were small and your mom was really sick and you asked Him to make her well? He did, didn’t He…of just a coincidence…perhaps it was the medicine…
Not only are you preaching to me which is against the rules, but you are even claiming that I wasn't sincere in my invitation to God and that I was actually "challenging God".
I absolutely will report you on this just because it's so outrageous and arrogant of you to proclaim such slander toward me on a personal level.
More PREACHING, and more personal accusations and slander.pshun2404 wrote: He use to speak to you in your spirit when you were young (kind of like your conscience but deeper inside). As time went by and you were indoctrinated you drowned Him out.
Where do you get off telling me that I was downing some God out?
Moreover, any God who could be so easily drowned out wouldn't be worth much in any case.
I never heard any "Voice of God". I never saw a talking burning bush. I never heard God speak from the clouds. I never even had an imaginary vision of Jesus appearing before me like Paul did on the road to Damascus. In fact, I never even had a mere dream where I felt that any external God, spirit, or entity of any kind was attempting to have a conversation with me.pshun2404 wrote: Maybe you did not know His voice? When your best friend calls you know instantly don’t you…you know what they sound like, what they think like, what they like to do and wish you would or would not do, you trust this IS your friend even though they are not right there in front of you….you know them this well because in a way you have spent much time with them and in a sense you love them, trust them, and mutually care about them.
This is just more PREACHING on your part.pshun2404 wrote: So share with me what you will consider “actual evidence� of what I said in the previous post….evidence that He loves you? The best is that He would become flesh and give Himself for you that you could escape the place where all who reject Him must go because they die in their sins (and we are all sinners…no one is more aware of their unworthiness than a really spiritual person).
Where is there any evidence that Jesus is anything more than superstitious rumors. You can't use ancient folklore tales as "evidence". That's baloney.
Besides any God who actually loves me would NEVER have his innocent son brutally beaten and nailed to a pole on my behalf, because any God who actually knows me would know that I would never condone such an immoral act on my behalf.
If Christianity is true, I would have no choice but to decline the crucifixion of Jesus on my behalf. If Christianity is true this God would have no choice but to cast me into the pits of hell, simply because I won't lower myself to his filthy immorality.
How does that equate to a God who loves me? Hitler could offer me the same garbage.
If Jesus is REAL all he needs to do is show up at my door just like he appeared before Saul/Paul. Why should that be a problem for Jesus if he is indeed "real".pshun2404 wrote: In fact, my door is wide open to this very day. Jesus is more than welcome to show me that he's real. What's stopping him? Certainly not me!
Actually it is! If I said your dad was a fairy tale, bugs bunny or something, you would say, but he was real person come in the flesh who actually did real things in real time….so has my Father….you would say that because you never saw Him (though some have) or heard Him (though some have) or BELIEV the things He has done (like your dad) that I must either be a liar or deluded (then so are you regarding your father)…so what constitutes for you real evidence for you?
The fact that he never does this for anyone (not even those transformed people who give their testimonies) is actually strong evidence that he's nothing more than an imaginary superstitious fairytale.
We don't even know that Jesus was an actual historical person. Even that isn't clear. But even if he was that doesn't mean that the superstitious rumors about him being the demigod son of Yahweh are true.pshun2404 wrote: What do you expect me to do PRETEND that something happened when in fact it didn't?
What that Jesus was a real historical person who had a goal of being killed and talked of it before it happened and had many witnesses, and was indeed crucified? Or do you mean that you tried and nothing happened to YOU? This is not clear!
In fact, even if you could prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that some actual man named Jesus lived, argued with the Pharisees, rebuked the teachings of the Old Testament, and was crucified for blaspheme just as the Gospels rumors claim, I would still have absolutely no reason to believe that Jesus was the demigod virgin-born son of Yahweh, or that he then rose from the dead along with a bunch of supposed "saints".
When I talk about Pretending, I'm talking about proclaiming that I have a relationship with Jesus. If it's entirely a ONE-WAY relationship, then it's not a relationship at all. All that amounts to is pretense, dishonesty, and an outright lie on my part.
If I told you that I have a relationship with someone I never had any actual contact with I would be lying to you. It's that simple.
Do you have a relationship with Jesus that is anything more than wishful thinking and personal delusion on your part. In other words, can you actually have a meaningful conversation with this real living deity where he actually converses with you in a meaningful way?
If you answer that question, please consider that lying is not an honest answer.
Sounds to me like nothing more than a personal faith based hope and dream.pshun2404 wrote: Why are you begging me to read ancient Hebrew folklore? I thought the God of this folklore is the one who is supposed to want to have a relationship with me. This seems to be far more important to you than to him.
Look, I assume you are a scientifically oriented person, So if you had an experiment that had been done over and over, in order to get the same results you would have to take the same steps, right? Follow the same set of protocols, right? And if you left out a part or step or decided you will just do it your way and then did not get the same results, would you say the results others repeatedly got that were the same were a myth, they are making it up?
Do what He says, His way, and you will get the same results…then you will never be able to deny it is real….its that simple…thats what I did and I cannot deny Him anymore than I can deny my own mother. In fact for me He is more real and more important than my mother, my wife, my children....I love them so much I would die for them but if it was any of them OR God, they would have to go...
That's not the issue. We're not talking about pretending to do things "His Way". In fact, I don't even know what that means. Every Christian seems to think that God expect something different.pshun2404 wrote: But okay! I understand, and no I would not want you to pretend…if you cannot or will not do His thing His way I can promise you nothing....if I did not build a cold trap device to capture my wrong handed amino acids they would just denature (just like Miller and Urey's before they intelligently designed their device).
As far as I'm concerned I already do everything in accordance with the things Jesus taught. I am already in perfect harmony with Jesus. And just as Jesus requested I am also Perfect like the Father who is supposedly in Heaven.
I wouldn't need to pretend that I am in perfect harmony with Jesus or God as described in the Biblical Fairytales.
What I would need to PRETEND is that I actually have two-way conversations with them or have ever heard from either of them. It would be both a pretense and a lie for me to tell anyone that either Jesus or God are "real".
The only way I could become an active Christian is to become a liar.
If I told anyone that Jesus is real, or that anything attributed to him in the New Testament Gospels is truth, I would be outright lying.
In fact, if Jesus actually wants me to do that, then Jesus would be asking me to become a liar for him.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Post #29
[Replying to post 24 by Divine Insight]
Points all well taken and I do not agree that I was preaching just explaining (which I knew you would not accept) so what kind of evidence would you require?
Points all well taken and I do not agree that I was preaching just explaining (which I knew you would not accept) so what kind of evidence would you require?
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Divine Insight
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Post #30
I don't require any evidence from you, or any other human.pshun2404 wrote: [Replying to post 24 by Divine Insight]
Points all well taken and I do not agree that I was preaching just explaining (which I knew you would not accept) so what kind of evidence would you require?
The only evidence I would require from a supernatural entity who supposedly wants to have a relationship with me would be for it do actually do just that.
Until then the very best I could do is "Pretend" to have a relationship with an entity that never showed up. It could never be anything more than pretense until the entity in question actually did show up. Only then could it be real.
Moreover, as I have already told you, I've done my part. All that's left if for Jesus to do his. What do you expect me to do? Twist Jesus' arm and force him to show up?
The ball is in Jesus' court. It's up to him to make the next move. There is absolutely nothing more I can do unless you are suggesting that I could force Jesus to reveal himself somehow.
Also, I can't imagine why I even need Jesus. I'm not suffering any addictions, or any kind of desperation at all. There is nothing I need to be "saved" from unless it is the wrath of Jesus himself. But that would be an oxymoron.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
