Is there one?
Why not?
I would think some radical off the wall brainiac genius scientist of some sort would at least come up with something.
Anyone?
Hypothesis for consciousness apart from the physical body
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SeaPriestess
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SeaPriestess
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Post #21
[Replying to post 18 by William]
Exactly. Thank you. Plus, scientists can't even narrow down what consciousness is according to what Agnostic Boy wrote. So, there's that too.
Exactly. Thank you. Plus, scientists can't even narrow down what consciousness is according to what Agnostic Boy wrote. So, there's that too.
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Overcomer
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Post #22
TSGracchus wrote:
As Philosopher J. P. Moreland writes in his Kingdom Triangle, you can't get mind out of matter. You can rearrange matter all you want, but all you have is just matter.
But you can see a ripple. You can feel a ripple. You can't see a person's consciousness. Nor can you feel it. But we know it's there.There is no good reason to suppose the ripple can exist independent of the river.
As Philosopher J. P. Moreland writes in his Kingdom Triangle, you can't get mind out of matter. You can rearrange matter all you want, but all you have is just matter.
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TSGracchus
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Post #23
[Replying to post 20 by SeaPriestess]
SeaPriestess: "Plus, scientists can't even narrow down what consciousness is according to what Agnostic Boy wrote."
Consciousness is a neural feedback response to environment.
See, for instance: Human Behavioral Biology --
These 25 lectures that Dr. Sapolsky delivered at Stanford, should introduce you to the basis of consciousness.
SeaPriestess: "Plus, scientists can't even narrow down what consciousness is according to what Agnostic Boy wrote."
Consciousness is a neural feedback response to environment.
See, for instance: Human Behavioral Biology --
These 25 lectures that Dr. Sapolsky delivered at Stanford, should introduce you to the basis of consciousness.
Re: Hypothesis for consciousness apart from the physical bod
Post #24In order to be a real hypothesis science requires that the proposal be falsifiable. Consciousness that is apart from the physical body does not qualify.SeaPriestess wrote: Is there one?
Why not?
I would think some radical off the wall brainiac genius scientist of some sort would at least come up with something.
Anyone?
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TSGracchus
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Post #25
[Replying to post 21 by Overcomer]
Overcomer: "You can't see a person's consciousness. Nor can you feel it."
Well, actually I can! "Cogito ergo sum." But perhaps you can't. That would put me one up on you and Professor Moreland, who is not a biologist or neuroscientist.
Overcomer: "You can rearrange matter all you want, but all you have is just matter."
But if you arrange the matter into a brain, you have matter conscious of itself.
.
Overcomer: "You can't see a person's consciousness. Nor can you feel it."
Well, actually I can! "Cogito ergo sum." But perhaps you can't. That would put me one up on you and Professor Moreland, who is not a biologist or neuroscientist.
Overcomer: "You can rearrange matter all you want, but all you have is just matter."
But if you arrange the matter into a brain, you have matter conscious of itself.
.
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Guy Threepwood
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Re: Hypothesis for consciousness apart from the physical bod
Post #26[Replying to post 1 by SeaPriestess]
Not so long ago- the mere concept of a vast cloud of knowledge and information, able to cater to millions of people anywhere in the world invisibly and instantaneously- was considered inherently supernatural. Yet here we are- the visible devices in front of us are mere conduits for this conversation, not the source of it, right? and just like the human brain, anyone delving into them would find only superficial memory & processing cells with connections, would be mystified as to where the origin of all the creativity really lies-
We did not invent these lines of communication, we merely discovered that they already existed.
So the greater question I think is, if we mere mortals can do it, why wouldn't God have implemented something similar between us? he didn't know how?! didn't want to?! I can't think of any good reason !
Not so long ago- the mere concept of a vast cloud of knowledge and information, able to cater to millions of people anywhere in the world invisibly and instantaneously- was considered inherently supernatural. Yet here we are- the visible devices in front of us are mere conduits for this conversation, not the source of it, right? and just like the human brain, anyone delving into them would find only superficial memory & processing cells with connections, would be mystified as to where the origin of all the creativity really lies-
We did not invent these lines of communication, we merely discovered that they already existed.
So the greater question I think is, if we mere mortals can do it, why wouldn't God have implemented something similar between us? he didn't know how?! didn't want to?! I can't think of any good reason !
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TSGracchus
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Re: Hypothesis for consciousness apart from the physical bod
Post #27[Replying to post 25 by Guy Threepwood]
"So the greater question I think is, if we mere mortals can do it, why wouldn't God have implemented something similar between us?"
Or maybe it was leprechauns! We don't need to postulate anything "spiritual" to explain real phenomena.
What humans did was set up a physical way to transmit information. That "cloud" is actually real, physical machines and networks, operating under laws of physics.
"So the greater question I think is, if we mere mortals can do it, why wouldn't God have implemented something similar between us?"
Or maybe it was leprechauns! We don't need to postulate anything "spiritual" to explain real phenomena.
What humans did was set up a physical way to transmit information. That "cloud" is actually real, physical machines and networks, operating under laws of physics.
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William
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Post #28
[Replying to post 19 by TSGracchus]
Now think about that it is possibly the other way around...
Then understand that the ripple is the river. The rock which helped cause the ripple is the brain.
You are thinking the ripple is consciousness and the river is the brain?There is no good reason to suppose the ripple can exist independent of the river.
Now think about that it is possibly the other way around...
Then understand that the ripple is the river. The rock which helped cause the ripple is the brain.
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William
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Re: Hypothesis for consciousness apart from the physical bod
Post #29[Replying to post 26 by TSGracchus]
Information is only information when consciousness is involved.
A universe without consciousness is not information.
Also things without brains still exhibit something which can be seen to be reminiscent of consciousness.
The argument of course is centuries old and still no closer to being resolved.
When one has an OOBE - one no longer wonders about it....
Which all started with a big bang.What humans did was set up a physical way to transmit information. That "cloud" is actually real, physical machines and networks, operating under laws of physics.
Information is only information when consciousness is involved.
A universe without consciousness is not information.
Also things without brains still exhibit something which can be seen to be reminiscent of consciousness.
The argument of course is centuries old and still no closer to being resolved.
When one has an OOBE - one no longer wonders about it....
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TSGracchus
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Post #30
[Replying to post 27 by William]
"You are thinking the ripple is consciousness and the river is the brain?"
Not exactly! The ripple is not a separate thing from the river, and the river is not separate from the entire hydrologic cycle.
The "ripple" is the chain of activated neurotransmissions. The net result of those chains is consciousness. There is no consciousness without the chemistry. Of course it is more complicated, because there is the influence of hormones and even the chemical signals transmitted from the bacteria in the gut to the brain. Each of us is actually a colony of hundreds of trillions of cells, not just a single organism but a whole ecosystem.
Again, I would refer you to Human Behavioral Biology -- ,
or Dr. Sapolsky's book Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst. The subject is quite complex enough without invoking deities and demons and other indemonstrable woo.
"You are thinking the ripple is consciousness and the river is the brain?"
Not exactly! The ripple is not a separate thing from the river, and the river is not separate from the entire hydrologic cycle.
The "ripple" is the chain of activated neurotransmissions. The net result of those chains is consciousness. There is no consciousness without the chemistry. Of course it is more complicated, because there is the influence of hormones and even the chemical signals transmitted from the bacteria in the gut to the brain. Each of us is actually a colony of hundreds of trillions of cells, not just a single organism but a whole ecosystem.
Again, I would refer you to Human Behavioral Biology -- ,
or Dr. Sapolsky's book Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst. The subject is quite complex enough without invoking deities and demons and other indemonstrable woo.
