Zygote

[Wootah]

Every cell in my 47 year old body is doing its best to keep me alive and to divide and split and produce me. This happened from cell 1 to cell 37.2 trillion. All of them, following their programming and making me ongoingly across time.

How is the zygote of a human not a human again?

[Diogenes]

When a position, such as the arbitrary claim that a single cell is a fully human being at the moment of conception, causes real harm to a living, conscious human being like a ten year old rape victim, the claim is reminiscent of the Pharisees who provoked the ire of Jesus by insisting on the letter of the law while harming people.

Jesus was rebuked by the Pharisees because his disciples failed to wash their hands according to tradition. Jesus called them out, using the example of the Pharisees not helping their parents by claiming they were withholding money for the temple.

For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die. But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

__ Matthew 15:4-9

This is exactly what today's evangelical Pharisees do when they decide (with ZERO Biblical basis) that a zygote is fully human at the moment of conception and show ZERO concern for ten year old rape victims, or for a woman's autonomy.
This arbitrary, non Biblical claim puts a concept, a mere claim, ahead of the interests of conscious human beings. The same man who rapes, seduces, or persuades a woman with an act of sexual intercourse then insists on continuing his control over her by forcing her to carry his seed to fruition.

A seed is not a fruit, but the Pharisee claims they are identical.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #21]

And what about the debate topic?

We are working out if we can kill a human just because they are a zygote. We are learning that our cells from t = 0 to t = now are working to propagate us over time and so that whatever we kill at t=0 or t=now is a human. So if killing humans is wrong, then it's wrong at t=0 or t=now.

Can the cells of a human zygote at t=0 propagate over time to not be a human?
Are my cells at t=47 years propagating not a human?

--

Are you arguing yes a baby is a human and yes a 10-year-old girl is a human and so now we have a version of the trolley problem?

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #21]

And what about the debate topic?

We are working out if we can kill a human just because they are a zygote.

This is your key error. You claim repeatedly, with ZERO support either from science or the Bible, that a zygote is the equivalent of an adult, conscious human being. You have offered no support for this claim. Certainly nothing from the Bible.
It takes incredible Chutzpah for a non Jew, one who has not studied Hebrew, to claim he better understands Hebrew scripture than the people who wrote it. Jews believe human life starts at birth, but you know better. You claim the Jews do not understand their own religion, their own scriptures, but YOU should pass judgement. Show me ONE place in either the Tanakh or the New Testament where God says human life starts at conception. You are substituting your ill informed opinion for the Word of the Lord.

"All Floridians have a constitutional right to religious freedom. Florida laws must respect that right," Ferleger said in a statement. "The law must fall because the abortion law forces Jews to surrender their religious beliefs."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/un ... -rcna37354

[Wootah]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #21]

And what about the debate topic?

We are working out if we can kill a human just because they are a zygote.

This is your key error. You claim repeatedly, with ZERO support either from science or the Bible, that a zygote is the equivalent of an adult, conscious human being. You have offered no support for this claim. Certainly nothing from the Bible.
It takes incredible Chutzpah for a non Jew, one who has not studied Hebrew, to claim he better understands Hebrew scripture than the people who wrote it. Jews believe human life starts at birth, but you know better. You claim the Jews do not understand their own religion, their own scriptures, but YOU should pass judgement. Show me ONE place in either the Tanakh or the New Testament where God says human life starts at conception. You are substituting your ill informed opinion for the Word of the Lord.

"All Floridians have a constitutional right to religious freedom. Florida laws must respect that right," Ferleger said in a statement. "The law must fall because the abortion law forces Jews to surrender their religious beliefs."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/un ... -rcna37354

That is not my error but yours. I am not saying a zygote is equal to a human.

I am saying that our cells from t = 0 to t = now are working to propagate us over time.

Is that a true statement?

If it is then whatever we mean by us was us as t= 0, t=5454334 or t=now.

If it is not a true statement then explain how it is false.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Diogenes in post #21]

And what about the debate topic?

We are working out if we can kill a human just because they are a zygote.

This is your key error. You claim repeatedly, with ZERO support either from science or the Bible, that a zygote is the equivalent of an adult, conscious human being. You have offered no support for this claim. Certainly nothing from the Bible.
It takes incredible Chutzpah for a non Jew, one who has not studied Hebrew, to claim he better understands Hebrew scripture than the people who wrote it. Jews believe human life starts at birth, but you know better. You claim the Jews do not understand their own religion, their own scriptures, but YOU should pass judgement. Show me ONE place in either the Tanakh or the New Testament where God says human life starts at conception. You are substituting your ill informed opinion for the Word of the Lord.

"All Floridians have a constitutional right to religious freedom. Florida laws must respect that right," Ferleger said in a statement. "The law must fall because the abortion law forces Jews to surrender their religious beliefs."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/un ... -rcna37354

That is not my error but yours. I am not saying a zygote is equal to a human.

Now you are being disingenuous. Everything you have previously claimed has amounted to "a zygote is equal to a human."
You write,

"I am saying that our cells from t = 0 to t = now are working to propagate us over time."

Yes, this is a clumsy way of saying that when two haploid cells join to form a diploid cell and several days later if it implants successfully in a uterus, it may eventually mature into a human being upon birth.
I don't think anyone disputes that. But you have been claiming, repeatedly and ardently as if God himself anointed you, that the single diploid is fully human and has rights that supersede those of its host.
This claim is contrary to the very scripture you claim to hold as sacred, the scripture you pretend is your basis for morality.
Your claim is also anti science in that your assertion is equivalent to claiming a spore is a mushroom.

[Wootah]

Now you are being disingenuous. Everything you have previously claimed has amounted to "a zygote is equal to a human."
You write,

"I am saying that our cells from t = 0 to t = now are working to propagate us over time."

Yes, this is a clumsy way of saying that when two haploid cells join to form a diploid cell and several days later if it implants successfully in a uterus, it may eventually mature into a human being upon birth.
I don't think anyone disputes that. But you have been claiming, repeatedly and ardently as if God himself anointed you, that the single diploid is fully human and has rights that supersede those of its host.
This claim is contrary to the very scripture you claim to hold as sacred, the scripture you pretend is your basis for morality.
Your claim is also anti science in that your assertion is equivalent to claiming a spore is a mushroom.

I don't know why you guys are bringing God into it. This is the right and wrong forum. Are you arguing for Christianity?

I am arguing that a human zygote is a human, a human foetus is a human, a human baby is a human, a human child is a human a human teenager is a human, a human adult is a human, a human old person is a human.

If you agree then you don't need to debate further if you disagree and want to debate further you will have to explain how.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #26

I am not saying a zygote is equal to a human.

I am arguing that a human zygote is a human

Make up your mind.

[Wootah]

[Replying to Wootah in post #26

I am not saying a zygote is equal to a human.

I am arguing that a human zygote is a human

Make up your mind.

Easy

The argument is not ' zygote is equal to a human' but the conclusion of the argument is ' zygote is equal to a human'.

The argument is that:

* every cell in my 47-year-old body is doing its best to keep me alive and to divide and split and produce me. This happened from cell 1 to cell 37.2 trillion. All of them, following their programming and making me ongoingly across time.

* our cells from t = 0 to t = now are working to propagate us over time.

* Our cells from t = 0 to t = now are working to propagate us over time so that whatever we kill at t=0 or t=now is a human. So if killing humans is wrong, then it's wrong at t=0 or t=now.

Can the cells of a human zygote at t=0 propagate over time to not be a human? Is that a true statement? If it is then whatever we mean by us was us as t= 0, t=5454334 or t=now. If it is not a true statement then explain how it is false.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #28

Can the cells of a human zygote at t=0 propagate over time to not be a human? Is that a true statement?

That isn't a statement; it's a question. So the next question is, "Over how much time must a zygote propagate to become human?" Not just human material, but a human being?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Wootah in post #26

I don't know why you guys are bringing God into it. This is the right and wrong forum. Are you arguing for Christianity?

We're bringing God into it because we know full well, from the Bible quote you put at the end of every one of your posts, that you bring God into every post you make.