Thoughts from Beyond the Borders of DC&R...

[mister_lee]

I found this posted on a blog by one of my favorite hip-hop groups, Jedi Mind Tricks. I spend a lot of time reading posts of this board and truly I get a lot out of it. What I found interesting was the scope of certain feelings, conceptions or misconceptions about Christians, especially those labeled fundamentalist.

Here is the top ten list as related by a member of the group:

Fundamentalist Christians

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

Questions for Debate:

1) Disregarding personal beliefs about biblical stories, Christians, in general profess that Christianity is a religion of love. If nearly all Christians agree with this notion. why are there so many people, some even believers in Christ, that view the religion, and many followers, as anything but loving?

A recent poll asked non-believers to convey the first thing that comes to mind when he/she thinks of a Christian. The top three were: 1) Judgemental 2) Hypocrite 3) Gay haters.

There is undoubtedly a little bias here, but the labels are not without warrant entirely.

2) Why is there so much disregard for one of the fundamental teachings by Christ? Not just a lesson, but something He commanded of His followers: LOVE others as much as GOD LOVES YOU.

[Metatron]

Fundamentalist Christians 10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

Hey, I'm used to their denials. Beats the heck out someone thinking that 5,000 different gods are individually ruling the universe.

I think very few people think that "5000 different gods are individually ruling the universe". They think THEIR god or pantheon of gods rules the universe.

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

Considering the absurdity and impossible odds of abiogenesis, divine creation looks pretty good as an alternative.

Even assuming "the absurdity and impossible odds of abiogenesis", the absurd and impossible odds of divine creation are not increased one iota.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

That's ONE God, manifested in three individuals.

Then God must have multiple personality disorder since Jesus constantly prays/talks to his "Father" despite the fact that the Father is himself.

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

Allah is fiction. God had his reasons and instituted divine Justice.

Since you are constantly asking non-theist to do the logically absurd task of proving that God does not exist, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Prove that Allah does not exist.

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

Come to the truth and you too will know the difference between myths and the reality of Christ.

Is that an answer? Why does God manifesting his avatar Jesus through virgin birth make any more sense than Vishnu manifesting his avatar Rama to save mankind from the Rakshasa lord Ravana?

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

Bull. There's plenty of old earth creationists.

And there are plenty of young earth creationists, including on this site.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

Whoever wrote this thinks it must be loving and tolerant to diss the Great King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, and basically call him a liar when he said that "no one comes to the father except through me."

How is this an answer? Do you deny that those who do not share your belief in Christ are going to fry in Hell? How can a god who is okay with eternal torture of most of mankind because they were either raised in another faith or are incapable of making the leap of faith to Christ be fairly claimed to be tolerant and loving?

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

Sounds like Michael Moore talk. As for science, a great many of the scientific disciplines have been founded by men and women who believed in a Creator God.

Not a big Michael Moore fan myself, but I fail to see the relevance. The science comments probably had to do with the paucity of evidence for contentions like Adam and Eve frolicking around with Allosaurus in the Garden of Eden or the silly notion that the entire planet was flooded with vastly more water than exists in our hydrosphere. Any thoughts on "speaking in tongues" and why God would choose this incoherent means of communicating with us?

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

Hey, God answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is no.

Any evidence that statement #2 is inaccurate?

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian[/i][/b].

From what I've seen around here the atheists and skeptics have pretty much butchered up whatever they think they know about the Bible.

From what I've seen around here there is no limit to the amount of scripture taken out of context by apologists to create linkage between the NT and the OT to justify their revisionism.

A recent poll asked non-believers to convey the first thing that comes to mind when he/she thinks of a Christian. The top three were: 1) Judgemental 2) Hypocrite 3) Gay haters.

Next time they're down and out maybe they can try to locate a "Bitter Atheist's Homeless Shelter."

What does this statement have to do with the bad impression Christians are making on non-believers?

2) Why is there so much disregard for one of the fundamental teachings by Christ? Not just a lesson, but something He commanded of His followers: LOVE others as much as GOD LOVES YOU.

Love does not rejoice in iniquity. But we can all do better, no doubt.

Love seeks to improve someone who has strayed from the right path, not condemn them out of hand.

[McCulloch]

That's ONE God, manifested in three individuals.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

Allah is fiction. God had his reasons and instituted divine Justice.

Allah is God. And yes God is fiction.

As for science, a great many of the scientific disciplines have been founded by men and women who believed in a Creator God.

And as science progresses fewer and fewer scientists believe in a personal creator God.

Hey, God answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is no.

And most of the time the answer is completely indistinguishable from no answer at all.

Next time they're down and out maybe they can try to locate a "Bitter Atheist's Homeless Shelter."

Atheists do not feel the need to do their charitable work in the name of Atheism.

[Easyrider]

That's ONE God, manifested in three individuals.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

If you don't know after all these threads I can't help you.

As for science, a great many of the scientific disciplines have been founded by men and women who believed in a Creator God.

And as science progresses fewer and fewer scientists believe in a personal creator God.

Well, you have a captive and indoctrinated audience in the school system. Allow some contrary points of view and you won't have so many.

[Metatron]

That's ONE God, manifested in three individuals.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

If you don't know after all these threads I can't help you.

Or you can't help him because you have no reasonable answer yourself. Humor us. Why does an omnipotent being NEED to split himself into three distinct entities and why does that not qualify Christianity as a polytheistic religion?

As for science, a great many of the scientific disciplines have been founded by men and women who believed in a Creator God.

And as science progresses fewer and fewer scientists believe in a personal creator God.

Well, you have a captive and indoctrinated audience in the school system. Allow some contrary points of view and you won't have so many.

You mean allow Christian propagandists to spread disinformation in the public school system so that the scientific method plays second fiddle to faith-based statements of "fact".

[McCulloch]

That's ONE God, manifested in three individuals.

I don't know what that means. Do you?

If you don't know after all these threads I can't help you.

I know the standard explanations. It is just that none of them make any sense.
I am told that there is one God. But that the one god consists of three persons. The three persons are not three masks or roles but truly individual persons. But not three Gods and not three persons who together as a group or a committee are the one God. One God, three persons, each person being completely God, but not the entirety of God. But being God is not an attribute, like being Human. No, not like six billion persons, one humanity.
Sorry, it just does not make sense.

As for science, a great many of the scientific disciplines have been founded by men and women who believed in a Creator God.

And as science progresses fewer and fewer scientists believe in a personal creator God.

Well, you have a captive and indoctrinated audience in the school system. Allow some contrary points of view and you won't have so many.

Science is built on skeptically looking at contrary points of view.

[mister_lee]

THis could be an interesting thread, but as there is really no topic for debate, I am moving it to Random Ramblings.

The questions for debate were listed at the bottom:

Questions for Debate:

1) Disregarding personal beliefs about biblical stories, Christians, in general profess that Christianity is a religion of love. If nearly all Christians agree with this notion. why are there so many people, some even believers in Christ, that view the religion, and many followers, as anything but loving?

A recent poll asked non-believers to convey the first thing that comes to mind when he/she thinks of a Christian. The top three were: 1) Judgemental 2) Hypocrite 3) Gay haters.

There is undoubtedly a little bias here, but the labels are not without warrant entirely.

2) Why is there so much disregard for one of the fundamental teachings by Christ? Not just a lesson, but something He commanded of His followers: LOVE others as much as GOD LOVES YOU.

i've known many loving and caring Christians throughout my entire life. i also dont know a single Christian who hates gays (spare me the examples of the extreme fanatics who stand on corners and hold "god hates fags" signs, they are not the norm and everyone knows that)

I will spare you specific examples but it is hard to deny there is a large portion of the population that displays hateful words and actions against gays. I will agree, that the majority of Christians do not "hate" gays, but if the split is 60/40 or even 70/30 what does that say, especially when 30% could be 10 million people.

......i've known Christians who do all kinds of charitable work with the poor, in hospitals, non profit groups......and who quietly show the love of Christ to others. where do you get the idea that most Christians are not loving?

I know lots of people, Christians or otherwise, that do good work in society. I know lots of good people that do bad things, and also do charitable work. Charity, in this country, is not always done out of the goodness of one's heart. I would say it is, in many cases, but definitely not all. We've set up a system that rewards charitable work. We're expected to have charitable work on our resumes, and charitable work equals political power in the world of politics. Sub-consciously or consciously the possibility of reward can eliminate the charity of an action.

As far as the last question, are you posing this to me, or the person that wrote the article or the people that answered the survey. For me, I do not believe that most Christians are not loving. And even the percentage that may hate gays, I wouldn't necessarily say they aren't loving either. This idea of "loving" of relative. Some of the most loving people to some, are considered reviled by others. It's all about perspective, and knowledge. Rarely do any of us have complete knowledge of a person, or their actions. We can never fully understand or know a person's heart. This is why there is no man or woman on this earth that can truly judge another.

Now, the viewpoint of many, that views Christians as un-loving, is not without warrant entirely. It is not fair that the loving Christians, examples of the love Christ personified, are lumped in with the rest, but the world is not fair. Until there is some semblance of unity, clarity of the message, it will continue to be this way. If Christians want to change the way they are viewed. then they must fight for it. There must be a voice greater than the ones professing hate, denouncing those that profess hatred. If people sit back and leave things to fate, or God, then they must live with the perception, however true or untrue it might be.

[mister_lee]

Easyrider wrote:

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

Allah is fiction. God had his reasons and instituted divine Justice.

Christians all over the world call God Allah. It's just the Islamic word for God.

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

Bull. There's plenty of old earth creationists.

Very true. But this was not referring to them.

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

Whoever wrote this thinks it must be loving and tolerant to diss the Great King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Jesus Christ, and basically call him a liar when he said that "no one comes to the father except through me."

Actually, he professes love for Jesus in his blog. This was not aimed at Christianity as a whole, but at the ones that destroy with there every breathe and action what Jesus stood for.

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

Sounds like Michael Moore talk. As for science, a great many of the scientific disciplines have been founded by men and women who believed in a Creator God.

Very true. And many of those people probably laugh and find it ridiculous when the preacher, counting his money in his pocket, touches someone on the head and they fall to the floor convulsing and speaking gibberish. I do believe some people are overwhelmed by emotion when touched by the spirit, but other times it's like a circus act.

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

Hey, God answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is no.

This was a poor way to illustrate his point. It's all about language and communication. A woman's child comes home from war. She prayed the whole time, and upon his arrival, "God answered my prayers." Next to her is another woman, who prayed the same amount. Her son comes home in a wooden box. The implication is that God saved one, and not the other. I don't believe God actively chose one to live or another to die. It was simply meant to be. The idea is the same, what is different is the language and implication. God is not a Steelers fan or a Cowboys fan. God does not favor the Yankees over the Red Sox, though until 2004 it may have seemed so for the last 80 years. People stand up and say things like, "God granted us victory." Personally, I feel it makes God seem very juvenile. The language and imagery we use is what is received to others in the world. When politicians stand up and say, "God bless America", when other nations see that, what they see is a country that cares only about its selves. Take off the America, and it's a whole different phrase. How about "us all" or "all the nations of the world".

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian[/i][/b].

From what I've seen around here the atheists and skeptics have pretty much butchered up whatever they think they know about the Bible.

Sometimes. But a lot of times is all about interpretation. The problem with interpetation is, anyone can be wrong, and anyone can be right. Only the writer truly knows.

A recent poll asked non-believers to convey the first thing that comes to mind when he/she thinks of a Christian. The top three were: 1) Judgemental 2) Hypocrite 3) Gay haters.

Next time they're down and out maybe they can try to locate a "Bitter Atheist's Homeless Shelter."

That was a very bitter comment, but I understand. This poll was biased, because these are human flaws, not Christian. The first two could be attributed to many of us. Gay haters, well, that is a little more warranted, though maybe the poll should have asked for a good and bad list. It's not really fair or just to simply point out the negative. We all have our positive and negative attributes.

2) Why is there so much disregard for one of the fundamental teachings by Christ? Not just a lesson, but something He commanded of His followers: LOVE others as much as GOD LOVES YOU.

Love does not rejoice in iniquity. But we can all do better, no doubt.[/quote]

Love does not rejoice in iniquity, but love can only love. Once love becomes something else, then it is no longer love. We can all do better, absolutely. We are all flawed and imperfect beings, and that is simply part of nature, regardless how one believes it came into the world. Love begots love. Hate begots hate. It's a personal responsibility to choose how we inflect ourselves to the world.

[mister_lee]

Easyrider & Zzyzx wrote:

Thank you for posting this from the blog you mentioned. It is very close to the truth in many or most instances...

It's a load of hooey for the most part.

The fact that you think so is exactly why I posted this. There is a great divide in some instances, in terms of how Christians view themselves, and how others view them. I don't agree with all of it, as it applies to all Christians, but in terms of many vocal Christians in the media, there is unfortunatly some merit.

, IMO; particularly as applied to the "god squad" of vocal "christian warriors" who are self-anointed to "defend the faith" or to "save" the "infidels" (or kill them "for their own good" and "in the name of god").

Seems to me you sleep pretty safely in a nation comprised of some 80% or more Christians. Anyone beating down your door?

We can stop stating that this nation is 80% Christian. I've done surveys as a journalist and communications major. They are extremely skewed and many times flat out wrong. From living in the country, ignoring all the silly surveys, I would say it closer to 65%, with a margin of error of 5%. There are a lot of people in this country that would say yes, to the question, Are you a Christian?, that are really not. There are people scared of saying he/she does not believe, because Christians are definitely the majority. In many cases, it is the difference between getting a job or not getting a job. It could keep you from getting an apartment (it's happened) or in extreme cases maybe medical attention. Look around. Do Christian really believe that 8 out of every 10 people are Christians?

Of course, the vocal ones will not see themselves in that mirror and will attempt to defend or justify their attitudes and actions -- in an exercise in denial. Most will never see the inconsistencies and contridictions -- indoctrination removes the ability to apply reason, logic and common sense.

This shows the arrogance of the elitist rationalists: Christians are "indoctrinated" but you are the learned and scholarly possessors of the "truth." LOL![/quote]

Both views are presented with both arrogance and an elitist mentality. Not all Christians are indoctrinated, and the public school system is not some evil Atheist factory. There are people on both sides that will refuse to learn or attempt to understand the other. It's a shame really. It is through others, especially those that differ from ourselves, that we can truly learn and grow as individuals.

[Zzyzx]

We can stop stating that this nation is 80% Christian. I've done surveys as a journalist and communications major. They are extremely skewed and many times flat out wrong. From living in the country, ignoring all the silly surveys, I would say it closer to 65%, with a margin of error of 5%. There are a lot of people in this country that would say yes, to the question, Are you a Christian?, that are really not. There are people scared of saying he/she does not believe, because Christians are definitely the majority. In many cases, it is the difference between getting a job or not getting a job. It could keep you from getting an apartment (it's happened) or in extreme cases maybe medical attention. Look around. Do Christian really believe that 8 out of every 10 people are Christians?

According to a study by The Institute for Social Research at the University of Michigan, 53% of Americans consider religion to be very important in their lives. [Without specifying which religion], so obviously, 47% do not consider religoin to be very important in their life. http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm
Another study which I cannot locate at the moment indicates that over half of US adults attend church one time per year or less. This may not be a direct indication of levels of “faith”, but it casts some doubt on the claim of “Christian Nation”

Of course, Christians will continue to identify the US as a "Christian Nation" -- just as some maintain that the US is still the "breadbasket of the world" even though we have become a net importer of food. Reality is not needed nor recognized in such grandiose statements.