Does God cause evil?

[DanieltheDragon]

Does God cause evil?

Some assert that God causes no evil. Is there cause to believe this is true. Can this position be supported. Is the character described in the bible incapable of evil?

I would assert that a position that claims God created everything would make him the original cause of evil. That God cannot escape being the cause of evil since he created any and all situations in which evil would arise.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 237 by William]

GOD does not cause evil. Human beings are the ones who do this, in their actions.

Who created humans?

Did this creator of humans know that their actions could be evil?

Did this creator provide an environment of scarcity which leads to evil?

Did this creator create an evil entity that tempts humans into evil actions?

Does this being allow evil to perpetuate?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 240 by Tired of the Nonsense]

In brief, I hold divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake, because it denies freedom and makes God the cause of all evil. I hold God is the ideal model of power power over powers, participating in the free self-decisions of others. God is best thought of as Cosmic Artist luring the world to beauty, rather than a cosmic dictator, a Ruling Caesar. We and God are co-creators.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 240 by Tired of the Nonsense]

In brief, I hold divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake, because it denies freedom and makes God the cause of all evil. I hold God is the ideal model of power power over powers, participating in the free self-decisions of others. God is best thought of as Cosmic Artist luring the world to beauty, rather than a cosmic dictator, a Ruling Caesar. We and God are co-creators.

If God is not omnipotent, how did He go about putting his plan for divine salvation into effect? With no knowledge of the outcome, and no ability to alter events as they occurred, did He just get lucky? Or perhaps He was hoping for an entirely different outcome?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 243 by Tired of the Nonsense]

Good question. See, I don't think God as having set up some detailed plan ahead of time and then everything goes to that plan. God's goal is to achieve beauty. Beauty means complexity. Complexity means freedom. And freedom means things can go otherwise than as indented. If a piano had only one note on it, nobody could ever hit a wrong note. With 88 keys, then yes, there is possibility of wrong notes. Chances for evil always overlap with chances for good. God knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibility, not decided matters of fact. God cannot decide our decisions for us. God can influence them; but in the end, its up to us to decide. Hence, the future is iffy, indeterminate, both for ourselves and for God. God is the great risk taker. Since the future is iffy for God, no, God didn't wit down ahead of time and think about having Shakespeare come along and write his plays. God knows The future is too iffy for that kind of planning and hope. God is not in the guarantee business, cannot guarantee every story will have a happy outcome. What God is assured of is that he or she will present creative possibilities to lure us to actualize such beauty as is possible under the circumstances.

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 244 by hoghead1]

If God id not in the garuntee business how can he promise us anything and how could we hold him to anything he promises? If it's all intentions and hope and he holds no real sway one way or the other than I don't see how anything God says is enforceable.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 237 by William]

GOD does not cause evil. Human beings are the ones who do this, in their actions.

Who created humans?

PCE Christian theology contends:
Humans are those Spirits created by GOD in all innocence who chose by their free will to be evil in HIS sight.

Did this creator of humans know that their actions could be evil?

When HE created them as innocents He knew they could chose to become either perfectly holy or perfectly evil. Only those who chose to be evil were sent to earth to be born as humans.

Did this creator provide an environment of scarcity which leads to evil?

In Sheol where they were created, not yet human, there was no scarcity in any manner to lead to evil. An evil spirit sent here from Sheol needs no scarcity to lead him to evil - he is now evil in nature and will act in an evil way even in abundance.

Did this creator create an evil entity that tempts humans into evil actions?

No sir, He did not. HE created no one evil but allowed people to chose for themselves to be evil in HIS sight or to seek holiness. That the judgement day against the evil ones is postponed until the last sinful elect who can repent does repent unto redemption gives the evil ones great incentive to keep the people of the kingdom in their sins.

Does this being allow evil to perpetuate?

All sinners by nature perpetuate evil unless they are restrained by the Holy spirit. Those sinners that are redeemed by a rebirth can be trained to never choose evil again. Those evil spirits who rejected YHWH's offer of salvation by a rebirth as the lies of a false god, reap the natural consequences of their choice.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 244 by hoghead1]

If God id not in the garuntee business how can he promise us anything and how could we hold him to anything he promises? If it's all intentions and hope and he holds no real sway one way or the other than I don't see how anything God says is enforceable.

I agree. I accept predestination to heaven is a guarantee to those who accepted HIS deity that they would not face the judgement if they ever sinned. Predetermination is the same thing, another word for the same guarantee. Both terms do not apply to our self determined fate but to the lives of sinful humans only to bring HIS sinful elect, lives created to bring them to their redemption the most perfect way possible.

[Zzyzx]

.
Is this an example of just saying whatever sounds good? Can ANY of it be supported with verifiable evidence -- or is it (as appears) just rambling on with unsubstantiated religious dogma and personal opinion?

God's goal is to achieve beauty.

How do you (generic term) KNOW this? Have you heard it from God? Did some ancient writers claim to know 'God's goal'? Is there assurance that your or their testimonials are truthful and accurate?

Beauty means complexity.

Correction: Beauty is an opinion (as indicated by 'in the eye of the beholder'). Some beholders (observers) consider SIMPLICITY to be beautiful.

Complexity means freedom.

Correction: complexity means '1. composed of many interconnected parts; compound; composite: 2. characterized by a very complicated or involved arrangement of parts, units, etc.: 3. so complicated or intricate as to be hard to understand or deal with: http://www.dictionary.com

There is nothing in that definition that relates to freedom. In fact, a complex situation can LIMIT freedom of individuals.

And freedom means things can go otherwise than as indented.

Intended by whom in this case? How are the intentions known and by whom?

God knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibility, not decided matters of fact.

How can the extent of God's knowledge be determined? Are you just making this up as you go along?

God cannot decide our decisions for us. God can influence them; but in the end, its up to us to decide.

Kindly verify that God can influence our decisions.

Hence, the future is iffy, indeterminate, both for ourselves and for God. God is the great risk taker.
Since the future is iffy for God, no, God didn't wit down ahead of time and think about having Shakespeare come along and write his plays. God knows The future is too iffy for that kind of planning and hope.

This sure assumes great personal knowledge of the mind of God.

God is not in the guarantee business, cannot guarantee every story will have a happy outcome.

Thus, worshiping and obeying God (and asking forgiveness for 'sins' and 'repenting') is not guaranteed to result in 'happiness' in an 'afterlife' (since 'God isn't in the guarantee business'). Right?

What God is assured of is that he or she will present creative possibilities to lure us to actualize such beauty as is possible under the circumstances.

Did God publish or verbalize this scenario? OR is it something that Theists and/or theologians may attribute to God?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 245 by DanieltheDragon]

God's "promises" are always conditional. Indeed, you would find that in the Bible. God promised to make Israel a mightily nation, provided they follow him. In the end, they didn't, so down they went.
I didn't say God has no influence whatsoever. I said God lures us. God provides initial aims for all occasions; and this aim is always felt by the entity and therefore actualized to some real degree. So God's aim is never negligible. However, all entities have some real degree of freedom as to the degree to which they will actualize the aim. It is not without impact, but it does not determine the whole thing.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 248 by Zzyzx]

First of all, I realize it is a fad among many atheists here and elsewhere to ridicule theists, with questions like.' Oh, did you hear than from God personally?," etc. Such sarcastic remarks are out of place in a serious theological discussion and are irrelevant. No, I don't have some personal revelatory experience of I I can appeal to. But big deal, so what? I have presented arguments for my case and those should suffice. It amuses me how atheists become angered when the shoe is on the other foot, when fundamentalists say to them, "Oh, you were around to see the Big Bang? You have a camcording?," etc. If neither side can appreciate some degree of speculation is involved in this discussions, one way or the other, he shouldn't be here.

In a number of previous posts, I have addressed why I am a realist, assume beauty is objective, out there. Basically, my point is that the whole primary-secondary dichotomy is arbitrary and does not account for any of our experience. Since I have covered this ground before, I'm not going to repeat it again here. If you wish to rebut any of my points, then you should maybe look over previous posts and bring that up here.

Say8ing that some people find simplicity beautiful, is beside the point. Generally, what they are talking about is avoiding excesses. And you can be complex without being excessive.
The fact remains that beauty does demand complexity, that is, similarity and diversity, the many become one. That's why we have pianos with 88 keys, as opposed to just one note.
Yes, complexity does mean more freedom, more room to be this way rather than that. With 88 keys, you have a lot more freedom than with just one, and of course, greater opportunity to miss notes, create racket, etc.

In number of previous posts, I resented my rationale for saying God is Cosmic Artist. I am a theist and I don't know of any other model of God that does as much justice to the facts. The universe is far too beautiful, far too magnificent, to be reduced to the tenets of some kind of penal code or mere morality.

I don't think it ever explained anything to say the purpose of life is the struggle for survival. Anything I have seen of life suggests there is far more to it than just survival. The course of evolution has been from the most simple to the more complex and sensitive, the ones more capable of experience. And we just don't seek to survival, we seek to live better. Our purpose is to be experiencing entities. That is why we are here. That is why we all seek beauty, feeling more deeply in ourselves and feeling more deeply into others, achieving greater harmony, more creativity, and a lifestyle that permits us to have enriched experience.