Atheism - How can one lack belief?

[theleftone]

I am looking for someone to explain to me (a) the concept of "lacking a belief in the existence of any deities," and (b) how one can truly maintain a position once coming into contact with the concept of a deity. Thus, my questions would be as follows.

1. What does it mean to "lack belief in the existence of any deities?"
2. Is it possible for one to have such a "lack of belief?"
3. Is it possible for one to maintain such a position after being introduced to the concept of a deity?
4. If so, to number 3, how?

[Bugmaster]

This is why I ultimately reject Curious' and Bro Dave's assertion that all you have to do is look inward and all these marvelous things will occur. To be quite frank, I find those arguments very weak.
...
So, I'd just like to stress the importance of looking at the philosophical and scientific issues. Approach these matters honestly and with much diligence. Keep enjoying the subjective experiences as our main gateway to the divine, but I don't think that subjective experiences will help us much in communicating across these conceptual framework differences that we have.

Hear hear. For once, Harvey and I agree on something :-)

[QED]

I was watching a BBC program last night about some men who were extracted from their normal live to spend time in a monastery with Benedictine Monks. Not all were religious, but they all seemed interested in the "meaning of life". This, of course, might be a Nil return in that there is no meaning to life. But either way, I think few people would claim to be totally uninterested in the matter. Ironically professed atheists can spend as much time reflecting on God as any Benedictine Monk -- I rather feel that I've given over a great deal of my own time thinking about this subject.

The people in the TV program were doing a lot of inward looking and I can't help feeling that the Monastic surroundings accelerated the process of marvelous occurrences. In fact one subject confessed as much after the event. This is the problem with the offer we keep getting from theists to "join their club" -- it's a seductive thing supernaturalism, I felt a certain amount of pull through the TV screen myself -- but that's not the magnetism of the real divine -- for all I know the Monastery and the Monks were just a TV studio set and a bunch of actors. This is like the "spooky graveyard" that puts a shiver up our spine: the graveyard could be fake, and so the shiver would not be a real signal in the aether, but rather is something entirely inside us.

[harvey1]

The people in the TV program were doing a lot of inward looking and I can't help feeling that the Monastic surroundings accelerated the process of marvelous occurrences. In fact one subject confessed as much after the event. This is the problem with the offer we keep getting from theists to "join their club" -- it's a seductive thing supernaturalism, I felt a certain amount of pull through the TV screen myself -- but that's not the magnetism of the real divine...

I spent a semester in a Benedictine monastary, so I know the feeling. But, a semester was as much as I could possibly take.

[QED]

I spent a semester in a Benedictine monastary, so I know the feeling. But, a semester was as much as I could possibly take.

That's fascinating Harvey. I quite like the idea of trying it for myself, but I suspect that I would only become a nuisance.

[harvey1]

That's fascinating Harvey. I quite like the idea of trying it for myself, but I suspect that I would only become a nuisance.

I feel that it is very likely that there are monks that are atheists. Also, there are retreats that you can do for a weekend or a week, and I highly suggest it if you have an interest. Even though I found out quickly that I didn't want to spend more than a semester in that kind of environment, there's nothing like it on earth either.

[QED]

I feel that it is very likely that there are monks that are atheists. Also, there are retreats that you can do for a weekend or a week, and I highly suggest it if you have an interest. Even though I found out quickly that I didn't want to spend more than a semester in that kind of environment, there's nothing like it on earth either.

That's an interesting thought that had never occurred to me - atheist monks! Strolling around contemplating the enigma of our existence all day long is not too far removed from describing my daily routine as it is. Being at a retreat where everyone is doing likewise would be a nice change, although prayer and worship would have to be optional!

[Curious]

I would disagree with your implication that such a trait is common only to theists however.

I had not intended it to be read as such and I find it a little difficult reading it in that way now. The trait is inherrent in the 'nuts & bolts' of our nervous system and sensors therefore it delivers us all a common experience, it is only the interpretation of some such experiences which I suggest feeds the superstitious type of mind in a different way.

Perhaps if I had used the term tendency in place of trait I would have been clearer. What I meant was that both sides of the argument almost invariably attempt to explain the world in terms of their own preconceptions. It's usually either in terms of the physical/material or spiritual, but rarely both. I have met precious few from either camp who would admit to their initial assumptions being either incorrect or questionable.

I've recently found that I have to spell out an aspect of my own mind which I see few other people considering; I think a false dichotomy has been erected between the material and immaterial. The physical, 'kickable', material (as Harvey likes to call it) is clearly an illusion of sorts. It is a convenient notion for much of the classical approach, but as such a convenient notion it is, I believe it fails us badly by setting up an artificial barrier between two camps of thought. Being separated in this way might be keeping both from the progress they seek.

I couldn't agree more.

You state that the proclivity towards evil in natural structures leads you to disbelieve in God but I think this is a little short sighted. If, as I have suggested, God consciousness is subjective, then the proclivity towards evil in non conscious structures is completely irrelevant. Only those structures that are conscious of a particular will should be statistically relevant. Even those claiming divine authority should be discounted unless proven authentic.

I'm not really understanding you here. Are you suggesting that God is above caring about such matters?

I am suggesting that it might be unwise to draw any inference from something that might or might not have any relevance. If you can show a direct causative link between such structures and God (without resorting to mythology) then infer away.

Am I to take it then that after a lifetime of complete abstinence from any relationship with God, you are to ignore this evidence and become a devout believer? This is all I suggest. If you find evidence that compels, you might want to believe. If you find no evidence, then atheism would seem more reasonable.

You're confusing me The evidence I have so far is that everything is utterly ambiguous and that there is a strong urge for people to interpret the process of the cosmos to fit-in with popular mythology -- much of which seems to be constructed in order to create a comfort zone -- so yes, on balance, I'm operating on the hunch that most of this is a mistake.

Then a healthy level of agnosticism or even atheism would seem a reasonable response. I see your point concerning the tendency to formulate a world view around existing mythology or doctrine in much the same way as medical science did in regard to the four humours. Fortunately, like medicine, religion does evolve even with the presence of religious Luddites.

[Vianne]

1. What does it mean to "lack belief in the existence of any deities?"

I'm sure someone has already pointed this out in the previous twenty-seven pages, but since I'm just now hopping into this discussion, I'll throw it out again: It means a person does not see any rational possibility that deities, as we understand the concept, could exist in the natural universe.

2. Is it possible for one to have such a "lack of belief?"

Of course. Otherwise atheism would be one of those interesting but ridiculous theories that people have heard of but never really been directly confronted with, rather like polygamy.

3. Is it possible for one to maintain such a position after being introduced to the concept of a deity? If so, to number 3, how?

Just because you've heard of the possibility doesn't mean you're obligated to assign any credibility to it. Surely at some point in your life you've been introduced to the idea of talking, flying pink unicorns ... how exactly do you maintain the position that they do not exist, now that you've heard of them? Atheism is the same way.

[theleftone]

Surely at some point in your life you've been introduced to the idea of talking, flying pink unicorns ... how exactly do you maintain the position that they do not exist, now that you've heard of them? Atheism is the same way.

Is atheism a "lack of belief," a propositional claim denying the existence of gods, or both?

[Vianne]

Surely at some point in your life you've been introduced to the idea of talking, flying pink unicorns ... how exactly do you maintain the position that they do not exist, now that you've heard of them? Atheism is the same way.

Is atheism a "lack of belief," a propositional claim denying the existence of gods, or both?

Depends on the atheist. Some say there may be a god, but since we don't currently have any evidence for one, they don't believe. Others say there absolutely is not and cannot be a god, and anyone who suggests otherwise is delusional.

Atheism by definition, of course, is simply being "without theism", or theistic beliefs.