Keep your friends from going to hell!

[Cmass]

If you take the bible literally, then most people are going to hell. If this is true, many of your friends may be heading for hell. Permanent torture is the most hideous thing imaginable.
Are you begging them and doing whatever is possible can to keep out of hell?

[Goat]

Most people equates to plus 50%. Please support your statement of "most"

One standard criteria that christians claim is that is someone has heard of Jesus, yet don't 'accept him as their lord and savior' (I.e. they are not Christian), they go to hell.

Only 1/3 of the world is Christian. That leaves 2/3's of the people who are not christian. I am sure the vast majority of them have heard of Christiainity, yet don't follow it.

That means, according to much of Christianity, those people will go to hell.

[Cmass]

I have read you play both sides of the ball.

When you first read some of my earlier posts, I was in the middle of an experiment. You did not read them from the beginning so I can understand why you think this. The fact is, it is well known in this forum I am an atheist - I say it every other time I post so I am certainly not hiding anything.

While I love to play devils advocate, I don't do it simply to be a pain in the ers.

You don't have to. LOL.

I just have a difficult time reconciling many issues with most organized religions.

Most thinking people have this same problem.

I can only keep seeking.

Good. Just keep your skepticism intact.

But still, in regards to friends and family in hell vs heaven, I would rather suffer eternity with family and friends than be happy and healthy with a group of strangers.

Too bad you are cranky this morning - I forgot to comment on one of your previous posts last night that I thought was one of the best I have read. This is EXCELLENT:

"....if my children go to hell because of their lack of understanding (such as mine is), then I willingly will follow. I would never allow my friends or family endure that which I wouldn't......I would rather spend it (in hell) with a million murders than with one Christian who knew the way to this god and refused to enlighten the rest.....If they (my family) aren't worthy of heaven because of a God they don't understand, then neither am I and I would consider it an honor to spend eternity in hell with them. That to me is true friendship and family.

Amen to that sister! This is some powerful stuff.

[achilles12604]

Achilles wrote:
On the contrary, I think you would make a very good Christian. You also make a good atheist.

Well, thank you Achilles! But I really would make a lousy Christian. A good person perhaps, but a lousy Christian. I love the ritual and tradition of Christmas but only because it is an excuse to have friends and family over for parties during the long, dark, rainy, snowy winter nights on the little mountain I live on. Jesus, even as a historical figure was not born in December. Christmas is a Pagan holiday.

I have been to more churches in more denominations than you are years old - in fact, all across the Midwest when I was touring with a choir and then as a semi-professional singer. During that time I never heard a sermon that was less absurd than it was entertaining to watch. Pure entertainment, nothing more.

Here is another reason I would make a lousy Christian: I am terribly irreverent. :yapyap: I really don't give a poop who you are or what your status is - I really don't. I may think it is really cool to meet you or I might have great respect for you because of great things you have done, but I have little capacity for bowing to anyone for anything. I just don't like it.

I also have a really tough time staying still in Church. "Lets get to the music! Let's go outside and play - I'm sure God is in the playground so lets go see!" The standing up and sitting down when told, reciting words out of the bible in unison etc.. I can barely keep from laughing most the time and view it as shallow actions by sometimes incredibly insincere people.

Here is actual even that exemplifies why I should not spend much time in a house of worship while other people are present:
One fine Sunday morning I had to perform at a Christian Science church. My accompanist was nearing 80 years old but had a very sly sense of humor. We shared our view of these sermons: They were utterly bizarre. There were 2 pulpits, 2 preachers - one reading biblical scriptures & one reading Mary Baker Eddy. Eddy wrote while on mushrooms and acid trips. Listening to the bible babble was bad enough but Eddy's drug tripping claptrap was over the top!
So, there we were in the front pew getting ready to perform our next song and as the sermon built in intensity so it too built in absurdity - and then this little old lady nudged my arm, winked with a grin! I completely lost it. I ran to the bathroom at full speed as I began one of the worst laughing attacks of my entire life!
The whole church scene was so utterly absurd with the strange unintelligible preaching and all those people pretending to be so staid, trying so hard to look interested, trying even harder not to fart or pick their noses - and this little old lady ready to chuckle and egging me on. It was just too much. When I got to the bathroom I was literally screaming in laughter, the noise bouncing off the tiled walls, tears streaming down my face, doubled over. I almost peed my pants. It took me 10 minutes before I was able to return to the congregation and finally sing.....the whole time panicked that I might start laughing hysterically in the middle of a tune. I am cracking up now just remembering it.

So, no, I would not make a very good Christian - at least not the good church going variety. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

Thats ok . . . I don't go to church either. I think I qualify as a Christian. If going to church makes you a Christian does going to the Garage make you a car?

[Confused]

I have read you play both sides of the ball.

When you first read some of my earlier posts, I was in the middle of an experiment. You did not read them from the beginning so I can understand why you think this. The fact is, it is well known in this forum I am an atheist - I say it every other time I post so I am certainly not hiding anything.

While I love to play devils advocate, I don't do it simply to be a pain in the ers.

You don't have to. LOL.

I just have a difficult time reconciling many issues with most organized religions.

Most thinking people have this same problem.

I can only keep seeking.

Good. Just keep your skepticism intact.

But still, in regards to friends and family in hell vs heaven, I would rather suffer eternity with family and friends than be happy and healthy with a group of strangers.

Too bad you are cranky this morning - I forgot to comment on one of your previous posts last night that I thought was one of the best I have read. This is EXCELLENT:

"....if my children go to hell because of their lack of understanding (such as mine is), then I willingly will follow. I would never allow my friends or family endure that which I wouldn't......I would rather spend it (in hell) with a million murders than with one Christian who knew the way to this god and refused to enlighten the rest.....If they (my family) aren't worthy of heaven because of a God they don't understand, then neither am I and I would consider it an honor to spend eternity in hell with them. That to me is true friendship and family.

Amen to that sister! This is some powerful stuff.

Really, I don't think I ever placed you as atheist. I think maybe skeptic, but not atheist. Interesting.

I hold true to that statement. I can't imagine an eternity without those I care for. It would be even more unbearable with the knowlege that not only will I never see them again, but they are suffering and there is nothing I could do. That wouldn't be heaven to me. I hold little value in materialistic things, even less in emotional things, but family is family and it stretches beyond any emotional attatchment one could have with anyone else.

[Cathar1950]

I would like to imagine a heaven where the rules to enter would be you would need at least one other person to say you should be there.
It would include people that no one knew but you heard of them or all children and those that suffered. Let them all in.
Instead of hell people that were bad people like Hitler and others unnamed would have to take classes and enter a personality development program with how to be a human courses with lots of reading, essays and speechs. Watch all of history on TV for hours with bad commercials.
After they pass their exams they move on to the next stage. Finally they get to play with others.

[Confused]

I would like to imagine a heaven where the rules to enter would be you would need at least one other person to say you should be there.
It would include people that no one knew but you heard of them or all children and those that suffered. Let them all in.
Instead of hell people that were bad people like Hitler and others unnamed would have to take classes and enter a personality development program with how to be a human courses with lots of reading, essays and speechs. Watch all of history on TV for hours with bad commercials.
After they pass their exams they move on to the next stage. Finally they get to play with others.

I would hope that heaven would be a place where everyone was family and everyone was friends and personalites could be distinct but cohesive. I don't know this god yet (should he even exist), nor do I know these apostles, christ, angels etc..... But to endure a heaven without those I consider those I care for, regardless of how good this god etc.... might be, wouldn't be a place where I would feel connected with everyone. Rather burn in hell with those who would carry the burden with me then be in heaven with those who don't even share the same burden.

[Cathar1950]

I would like to imagine a heaven where the rules to enter would be you would need at least one other person to say you should be there.
It would include people that no one knew but you heard of them or all children and those that suffered. Let them all in.
Instead of hell people that were bad people like Hitler and others unnamed would have to take classes and enter a personality development program with how to be a human courses with lots of reading, essays and speechs. Watch all of history on TV for hours with bad commercials.
After they pass their exams they move on to the next stage. Finally they get to play with others.

I would hope that heaven would be a place where everyone was family and everyone was friends and personalites could be distinct but cohesive. I don't know this god yet (should he even exist), nor do I know these apostles, christ, angels etc..... But to endure a heaven without those I consider those I care for, regardless of how good this god etc.... might be, wouldn't be a place where I would feel connected with everyone. Rather burn in hell with those who would carry the burden with me then be in heaven with those who don't even share the same burden.

I feel the same way and what about all the people I don't know? It would be nice to meet them too. Is the wonderful nature of the place such that they are like ants? I can't figure out what would be the point of having sympathetic relationships that are loving and deep with great feeling if it isn't going on. What would it be if we can't take it with us. What is the point of a soul if we cant remember. Isn't our present made up of memories that make our experiences now beautiful?

[Confused]

I would like to imagine a heaven where the rules to enter would be you would need at least one other person to say you should be there.
It would include people that no one knew but you heard of them or all children and those that suffered. Let them all in.
Instead of hell people that were bad people like Hitler and others unnamed would have to take classes and enter a personality development program with how to be a human courses with lots of reading, essays and speechs. Watch all of history on TV for hours with bad commercials.
After they pass their exams they move on to the next stage. Finally they get to play with others.

I would hope that heaven would be a place where everyone was family and everyone was friends and personalites could be distinct but cohesive. I don't know this god yet (should he even exist), nor do I know these apostles, christ, angels etc..... But to endure a heaven without those I consider those I care for, regardless of how good this god etc.... might be, wouldn't be a place where I would feel connected with everyone. Rather burn in hell with those who would carry the burden with me then be in heaven with those who don't even share the same burden.

I feel the same way and what about all the people I don't know? It would be nice to meet them too. Is the wonderful nature of the place such that they are like ants? I can't figure out what would be the point of having sympathetic relationships that are loving and deep with great feeling if it isn't going on. What would it be if we can't take it with us. What is the point of a soul if we cant remember. Isn't our present made up of memories that make our experiences now beautiful?

I think the only way one could make heaven as described pleasant despite the fact that our friends and family are outcasts would be to erase the human memory and experience. Wouldn't that make life meaningless and without purpose. I will stand by those I know, trust, and care for.

[Cathar1950]

I can understand wiping tears from our eyes and joy but memories seem inportant to me. What is the point of just pure good pleasure and delight and attachments and even the gory of God if we do not remember?
We need to experience and remember and there must be some contrasts.
What would be an intense pleasurable feeling or experience such as getting all drugged up on say morphine or Heroin if you never came down?
Even the experience of good and evil seem necessary to understand even simple pleasures and a pleasant life. Memory seems to be needed to experience in any meaningful way.
I guess everything we experience is memory even the present is the past only intense and immediate. By the time we see something it has happened. I had this weird experience one day when my children were very young 2 and 4 ( they are 24 and 26 now)and I remember them running across the room laughing. It dawned on me that I was looking at the past even as I smiled and watched. Even the things we see get sent to our brains before they are passed back thru the visual cortex to the brain again. But if I hear or see something I am experiencing the past for it has happened before I can experience it. It is all memory.

[wizanda]

Well since having had a Near Death Experince...seen and remember hell anda heaven (photographic spirit helps), plus the seat of God being whom we are..as this exsperince only reminded me....there is an article explaining the whole thing...yet it isn't to debate...and can be checked across the web on NDE sites...
As written the son of man will do with 13 diadems and has...

Peace all thxz for being open to look at things diffrently