Mormon Practices

[Kuan]

So were do you want to start Zzyzx? Should we continue with the early practice of polygamy? Just to clear up on another part of that, It was practiced also because of a large amount of widows who had no way to care for or move their families on the way to Utah and when they got there because their husbands had been murdered.

For those who dont know whats going on, me and Zzyzx were debating in a seperate thread, http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14180&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=, over the early practices mormons had, namely polygamy and moved the discussion here.

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

Once again, no evidence. Please provide evidence beyond your religious book why we should think the Israelites sailed across the sea to settle in 'America'.

I have already explained why mtDNA evidence could not reasonably be expected to exist, and that's what we were talking about. You evidently disagree, but so far you haven't explained why.

'Is it possible' and 'did it happen' are two seperate issues. I am asking why we should believe that it actually happened beyond the context of your preferred holy book.

Of course they are two separate issues. I have never pretended otherwise, nor have I asked you to believe it happened. It makes no difference whatsoever to me whether you believe or not. I'm trying trying to clear up the misinformation I see floating around.

In this forum, it is required to substantiate claims with evidence. I don't want to hear excuses for why there is no evidence of the claim that Israelites sailed the seas to settle in North America. One could just as easily say that a band of ancients from the area now known as Bangladesh sailed the seas to settle in North America and it would have just as much credence as your Israelite tale. That is, none.

Either present your evidence or retract the claim.

[scourge99]

So what? I nor anyone else should care about the rituals the religious perform when they cannot be shown to have any effect on reality.

Would you worry if a self-identified witch casted curses or hexes on you? If not then why worry about Mormons baptizing you by proxy after you are dead? This is all a bunch of hysterics by people who honestly believe in magic.

That's actually a very good point. Or, to put it in a slightly more positive light...
Suppose I purchased several hundred hard-to-find tickets to an upcoming concert and mailed one to every person I could think of. The ticket would guarantee the recipient a seat at the concert. How many of the individuals who received a ticket would be upset or offended by the gesture if they didn't happen to like the group that was performing? My guess is that there would be none. If people who received a ticket didn't want to go to the concert simply threw it in the garbage and forgot about it, the only one who would be out anything would be me -- for having spent my hard-earned money on a wasted ticket. That's how we Latter-day Saints see baptisms for the dead. We spend our time gathering the names of our ancestors. We then perform proxy baptisms on their behalf. If they wish to accept the gesture, great. The ordinance we performed for them will be considered as valid as if they'd been baptized themselves. If they aren't interested, it's as if it never happened. We could have spent our time doing something else, but that's about all.

Except concerts can be shown to exist in reality. Heavens and hells can only be claimed to exist by appealing to testimony from supposed prophets and holy-books, neither of which can be verified as true.

It would be like sending me a ticket for a concert that will occur in Neverland.

[Katzpur]

In this forum, it is required to substantiate claims with evidence.

So, just one side is required to present evidence? So far, I have seen an incorrect premise (i.e. that the America Indians are descended from the Israelites) and a unsubstantiated claim (i.e. that DNA evidence has proven this could not be true).

I don't want to hear excuses for why there is no evidence of the claim that Israelites sailed the seas to settle in North America.

I don't care what you want to hear. If you insist on misrepresenting our claims, you can expect me to point this out. What you cannot expect is for me to try to present a case for something I don't believe and that my Church doesn't claim -- namely, that the majority of the Native Americans are descended from the Israelites?

Either present your evidence or retract the claim.

The only claim I have made is that a small group of middle-eastern people could have settled on the American continent 2600 years ago without leaving any genetic evidence of their existance. I presented evidence of that claim. Let's see you refute it.

[Katzpur]

It would be like sending me a ticket for a concert that will occur in Neverland.

Maybe it won't, but that's immaterial to the point I was making and to your initial example.

Neither one of us knows what lies ahead of us at death. I could be wrong about there being an afterlife, but so could you. If there is one, it's probably more significant than a concert -- real or pretend. If there isn't one, neither of us will ever know.

[Zzyzx]

.

Neither one of us knows what lies ahead of us at death. I could be wrong about there being an afterlife, but so could you.

Even if there is such a thing as an "afterlife", there is no assurance that worshiping one of the thousands of proposed "gods" will obtain favorable treatment. One could "bet on the wrong horse" by choosing the wrong "god" to worship -- and be left out of the "afterlife reward system" (if such a thing existed).

Tens of thousands of different religions promise "preferred seating" in a proposed "afterlife" (without evidence, of course) to recruit and retain followers (and contributors to the preacher's benevolent fund) and threaten "eternal punishment" (or some such thing) for those who reject their wares.

Some promise "virgins" as reward, some promise reincarnation as "sacred cows", others promise "heaven". Which, if any, is true and WHY?

[Katzpur]

Even if there is such a thing as an "afterlife", there is no assurance that worshiping one of the thousands of proposed "gods" will obtain favorable treatment. One could "bet on the wrong horse" by choosing the wrong "god" to worship -- and be left out of the "afterlife reward system" (if such a thing existed).

Tens of thousands of different religions promise "preferred seating" in a proposed "afterlife" (without evidence, of course) to recruit and retain followers (and contributors to the preacher's benevolent fund) and threaten "eternal punishment" (or some such thing) for those who reject their wares.

Some promise "virgins" as reward, some promise reincarnation as "sacred cows", others promise "heaven". Which, if any, is true and WHY?

Mine, of course.

You've made a very good point. About all I can say about my belief in the afterlife is that of all the Christian denominations in the world, Mormonism has the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell. According to our belief, if you pick wrong here, you'll get more time to arrive at the correct answer. If you want to be stubborn enough, you can work things out with God so that you can pass up Jesus Christ's offer of grace entirely, pay the price for your own sins and still end up in Heaven. Furthermore, once you get there, nobody's going to sign you up for some celestial choir or make you sit on a cloud all day strumming a harp. Even if I weren't LDS, I'd kind of hope their idea of Heaven was true.

[LiamOS]

Even if I weren't LDS, I'd kind of hope their idea of Heaven was true.

I'd take the Pastafarian heaven, personally.

[Katzpur]

I'd take the Pastafarian heaven, personally.

So what's it supposed to be like? Lots of spaghetti and garlic bread?

[Kuan]

Once again, no evidence. Please provide evidence beyond your religious book why we should think the Israelites sailed across the sea to settle in 'America'.

I have already explained why mtDNA evidence could not reasonably be expected to exist, and that's what we were talking about. You evidently disagree, but so far you haven't explained why.

'Is it possible' and 'did it happen' are two seperate issues. I am asking why we should believe that it actually happened beyond the context of your preferred holy book.

Of course they are two separate issues. I have never pretended otherwise, nor have I asked you to believe it happened. It makes no difference whatsoever to me whether you believe or not. I'm trying trying to clear up the misinformation I see floating around.

In this forum, it is required to substantiate claims with evidence. I don't want to hear excuses for why there is no evidence of the claim that Israelites sailed the seas to settle in North America. One could just as easily say that a band of ancients from the area now known as Bangladesh sailed the seas to settle in North America and it would have just as much credence as your Israelite tale. That is, none.

Either present your evidence or retract the claim.

Im sorry but I meant for this to be in the discussion forum. The purpose of this thread was to clear up misconceptions not discuss whether we are the true religion or not and try to discredit our scripture. I asked the administrator to move the thread to the appropriate location.

Although does this help?

Does DNA evidence refute the Book of Mormon?

[Nec Spe Nec Metu]

In this forum, it is required to substantiate claims with evidence.

So, just one side is required to present evidence? So far, I have seen an incorrect premise (i.e. that the America Indians are descended from the Israelites) and a unsubstantiated claim (i.e. that DNA evidence has proven this could not be true).

I don't want to hear excuses for why there is no evidence of the claim that Israelites sailed the seas to settle in North America.

I don't care what you want to hear. If you insist on misrepresenting our claims, you can expect me to point this out. What you cannot expect is for me to try to present a case for something I don't believe and that my Church doesn't claim -- namely, that the majority of the Native Americans are descended from the Israelites?

Either present your evidence or retract the claim.

The only claim I have made is that a small group of middle-eastern people could have settled on the American continent 2600 years ago without leaving any genetic evidence of their existance. I presented evidence of that claim. Let's see you refute it.

I am going to have to ask you to kindly point out to me where you have provided evidence that the Israelites sailed over seas and settled in North America.

I am not mischaracterizing the belief you have professed as I have not phrased it the way I did in my second post since that very post. Even then, I only mischaracterized it because a self-professed Mormon mischaracterized his own belief. You believe Israelites came over to North America and settled in it several thousand years ago, as I have said and continue to say. I am challenging that belief with a request for evidence, a request which must be honored per the forum rules. Likewise, I never made the claim that DNA definitely disproves that it may have been possible. Check my posts. I'm asking for evidence that it did happen outside the context of your (in this forum) unauthoritative holy book. In other words, why do you believe this to be true besides taking the word of your preferred holy book? Is there any reason that I as a skeptic should take it seriously? Is there any evidence that this actually occured, or is it just wishful thinking?



"About all I can say about my belief in the afterlife is that of all the Christian denominations in the world, Mormonism has the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell."

To me, this speaks volumes about what motivates you to believe the things you do.

Edit: As of now, this topic has been moved to another forum. I still ask kindly that Katzpur substantiate her claim in the way required of the previous forum although she is no longer required to as per forum rules.