The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

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The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

Christian clergy and apologists claim that "All the Apostles died instead of recanting their belief in the Resurrection."

Josh McDowell ("More Than A Carpenter, Evidence Demands a Verdict") says,
"Even though they were crucified, stoned, stabbed, dragged, skinned and burned, every last apostle of Jesus proclaimed his resurrection until his dying breath, refusing to recant under pressure from the authorities. Therefore, their testimony is trustworthy and the resurrection is true."
Josh McDowell.

This is a demonstrable lie.

Sean McDowell, son of Josh McDowell, says:
If you have followed popularlevel arguments for the resurrection (or ever heard a sermon on the apostles), youve likely heard this argument. Growing up I heard it regularly and found it quite convincing. After all, why would the apostles of Jesus have died for their faith if it werent true?

Yet the question was always in the back of my mind how do we really know they died as martyrs?
(Note, he was told that lie by his father.)

The claim that all of Jesus' disciples were killed for their unwavering belief in the resurrection is a popular and often-repeated narrative. However, this claim is not entirely accurate and is based on a limited understanding of the available historical evidence.

Firstly, it is important to note that the historical record of the disciples' deaths is sparse and often unreliable. Many of the accounts of the disciples' deaths were written years or even centuries after the events they describe, and some of them contain obvious embellishments and inaccuracies.

Furthermore, there is significant debate among historians about the veracity of these accounts. Some historians argue that the disciples' deaths are well-documented and reliable, while others argue that the available evidence is too thin and contradictory to draw any definitive conclusions.

Even assuming that the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, it is not clear that they were all killed specifically because of their belief in the resurrection. Many of the disciples lived and died in relative obscurity, and there is little or no historical record of how or why they died.

For example, we know almost nothing about the deaths of most of the disciples, including James the Less, Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot. The accounts of the deaths of Peter and Paul are somewhat more reliable, but they provide no evidence that these disciples were specifically targeted for their belief in the resurrection.

Moreover, it is worth noting that many religious figures throughout history have been persecuted and even killed for their beliefs. The fact that the disciples were killed for their beliefs does not necessarily make those beliefs true, nor does it provide any evidence for the resurrection itself.

In conclusion, while it is certainly possible that some or all of the disciples were killed for their beliefs, it is far from clear that this is the case. Furthermore, even if the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, they do not provide any evidence for the resurrection itself. Therefore, the claim that the disciples were all killed for their belief in the resurrection is a problematic and oversimplified narrative that should be approached with caution.

1. To what extent do the deaths of the apostles prove the veracity of the resurrection story?
2. Can we trust the accounts of the apostles' deaths as historically accurate, or are they subject to bias and myth-making?
3. Is it possible for someone to be so convinced of a belief that they are willing to die for it, even if the belief is not true?
4. How do we reconcile the apostles' willingness to die for their belief in the resurrection with similar accounts of martyrs in other religions?
5. Do contemporary Christians have a responsibility to question the historical accuracy of their religious texts and teachings, or is faith sufficient?
6. If the clergy is lying so easily about this, what are we to believe about their other claims?
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #41

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:26 am [Replying to boatsnguitars in post #31]

Yes, I meant to type Sean there. I dont think youve shown that Josh McDowell committed pious fraud. He seems to have truly believed those accounts of deaths. Thats not fraud. I think he put too much stock in those accounts. Sean McDowell also thinks he did.

Sean (and I and many other Christians) feel the persecution (not death) of the apostles without recantations of their message centered on Jesus resurrection is a good reason to doubt the "apostles lied" theory. The uniqueness is not about Christians not recanting in the face of persecution for their beliefs, but the special case of those who would have made up the lie not recanting in the face of persecution for their lie.

This isn't claiming that since they didnt lie about the resurrection, it must have happened and Christianity is true. Its just a mark against the disciples lied theory. There are other theories to analyze.
It's so easy, isn't it? As long as you believe what your priest or apologists tells you, you can claim it's not pious fraud if you believe it. Maybe not even believe it, even, just claim it's accepted on Faith and say "even if I don't understand it, or believe it, I take it on Faith that it's true."
This means, an apologist can say anything, people can regurgitate it and no one needs to verify it, since it's believable because it's based on Faith.

The fact is, you are motivated - as a Religionist - to defend anything your religion claims. Muslims will use this same "reasoning".

The fact is, all religions (and you'd agree for all other religions) know they are lying, since they couldn't possibly believe they have proof of their claims if their God doesn't even exist. But, more to the point, the fact is, someone invented the idea that "all the apostles died without recanting" and the church taught this for a long time.

Then, you come along and say, "oh, but they believed it! No pious fraud!"

Who made the claim to begin with? That's the pious fraud - and it's swallowed hook, line and sinker with the laity. As you show.

So, defend Josh and Sean if you want, but they knew their claims weren't supported - or they should have - but moreso, they show how rife the Church is full of pious fraud, right back to the source. Did Mark write the GoM? Did Jesus say "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"? We'll never know.

You, as a Chrisitan, can't trust any of it. You shouldn't.

Yet, you dismiss this idea and hide behind "but I believe it".
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #42

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:42 amThe fact is, all religions (and you'd agree for all other religions) know they are lying, since they couldn't possibly believe they have proof of their claims if their God doesn't even exist.
No, I wouldnt agree that all other "religionists" know they are lying. They (like Josh McDowell) really believe certain claims are the most reasonable position to take.
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:42 amBut, more to the point, the fact is, someone invented the idea that "all the apostles died without recanting" and the church taught this for a long time.

Then, you come along and say, "oh, but they believed it! No pious fraud!"

Who made the claim to begin with? That's the pious fraud - and it's swallowed hook, line and sinker with the laity. As you show.
No one, to my knowledge, has shown that the apostles didnt die for their faith. I agree, however, that we cant say the apostles did all die for their faith. Those two things are different.

But lets assume it isnt true. Then the pious fraud isnt Josh McDowell, but the one who made up the lie long before.
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:42 amSo, defend Josh and Sean if you want, but they knew their claims weren't supported - or they should have - but moreso, they show how rife the Church is full of pious fraud, right back to the source. Did Mark write the GoM? Did Jesus say "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone"? We'll never know.
Which claim of Sean McDowells are you saying wasnt supported? He didnt claim the apostles died for the lie. And how does this show the Church is rife with pious fraud?
boatsnguitars wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:42 amYet, you dismiss this idea and hide behind "but I believe it".
I have not simply dismissed anything. I always give my reasons, never hiding behind simply "but I believe it".

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #43

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:57 pm Then the pious fraud isnt Josh McDowell, but the one who made up the lie long before.
So, there was a lie. It was accepted, despite there being no evidence - and then people believed it because that was the position the church took. Then, without researching it, other people pick it up and write it in books, like Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
Again, it is uncritically accepted.

Yet, atheists have been telling Chrisitans they were lying.

Christians continued, and continue this day, to make the same claims or similar ones (like the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, or that there were witnesses to the Rez, or the Shroud of Turin is real, etc.)
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A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #44

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:33 amSo, there was a lie. It was accepted, despite there being no evidence - and then people believed it because that was the position the church took. Then, without researching it, other people pick it up and write it in books, like Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
Again, it is uncritically accepted.

Yet, atheists have been telling Chrisitans they were lying.

Christians continued, and continue this day, to make the same claims or similar ones (like the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, or that there were witnesses to the Rez, or the Shroud of Turin is real, etc.)
Can you prove it is a lie? No. You can argue that we have no evidence it is the truth, but thats not the same as proving it is a lie. That's the same with the Gospels containing eyewitness accounts, there being eyewitnesses to the resurrection, and the reality of the Shroud of Turin.

But, assuming it is a lie, yes some Christians uncritically accepted it, some didnt know about it, and some critically didnt accept it.

And, guess what, many atheists just accept the gospels don't have eyewitness accounts, that the Shroud of Turin is false, that there weren't eyewitnesses to the resurrection because some scholars or internet personalities who point to some scholars say so. What if they are wrong because of some lie (intended or not) written years ago?

The point being, everyone needs to be more critical in their worldview.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #45

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:32 am The point being, everyone needs to be more critical in their worldview.
Thanks for the suggestion, and I agree.

In the case for a resurrection claim, which position warrants the most critical thinking?:

a) believe Jesus resurrected from the dead
b) believe Jesus did not resurrect from the dead
c) remain "agnostic" to the claim of a resurrection

Please remember, only option a) would qualify one as the "Christian". Why? --> "and if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain.". (1 Corinth. 15-14).

And yet, seems you might agree option c) is the best critical position to maintain?
Last edited by POI on Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #46

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:32 am
boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 4:33 amSo, there was a lie. It was accepted, despite there being no evidence - and then people believed it because that was the position the church took. Then, without researching it, other people pick it up and write it in books, like Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
Again, it is uncritically accepted.

Yet, atheists have been telling Chrisitans they were lying.

Christians continued, and continue this day, to make the same claims or similar ones (like the Gospels are eyewitness accounts, or that there were witnesses to the Rez, or the Shroud of Turin is real, etc.)
Can you prove it is a lie? No. You can argue that we have no evidence it is the truth, but thats not the same as proving it is a lie. That's the same with the Gospels containing eyewitness accounts, there being eyewitnesses to the resurrection, and the reality of the Shroud of Turin.

But, assuming it is a lie, yes some Christians uncritically accepted it, some didnt know about it, and some critically didnt accept it.

And, guess what, many atheists just accept the gospels don't have eyewitness accounts, that the Shroud of Turin is false, that there weren't eyewitnesses to the resurrection because some scholars or internet personalities who point to some scholars say so. What if they are wrong because of some lie (intended or not) written years ago?

The point being, everyone needs to be more critical in their worldview.
There were no witnesses to the Rez because it never happened. At some point, we've got to wake up to reality.
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #47

Post by The Tanager »

POI wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:09 amThanks for the suggestion, and I agree.

In the case for a resurrection claim, which position warrants the most critical thinking?:

a) believe Jesus resurrected from the dead
b) believe Jesus did not resurrect from the dead
c) remain "agnostic" to the claim of a resurrection

Please remember, only option a) would qualify one as the "Christian". Why? --> "and if Christ be not risen, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain.". (1 Corinth. 15-14).

And yet, seems you might agree option c) is the best critical position to maintain?
No, I believe that (a) is the best critical position to maintain, but Im not claiming that Ive presented the reasons for that in this thread. In this thread, Ive claimed agnosticism is the best critical position to take regarding whether the apostles died for the resurrection claim.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #48

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:42 amThere were no witnesses to the Rez because it never happened. At some point, we've got to wake up to reality.
Thats a strong claim. Care to support it?

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #49

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 07, 2023 2:36 pm No, I believe that (a) is the best critical position to maintain
Why? Maybe we need a new thread for this?.?.? Actually, yes. Hold your response. I'm making a new thread.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #50

Post by Clownboat »

The Tanager wrote: Wed Aug 30, 2023 1:47 pm That you dont trust Acts is noted, but irrelevant. The earliest Christians message was all about Jesus resurrection. If people felt their authority challenged, it was because of that message, so supposing that it is just about challenging authority doesnt escape that. Any recantation would go hand in hand with the centrality of the resurrection. The Romans wouldnt care about the resurrection, but the Jewish leaders definitely did as the Christians claimed Jesus was the resurrected Messiah as the central claim of their movement. All early Christian documents, including Paul, speaks of a bodily resurrection.
If Jesus resurrected, why did the Jews not notice it? Or did they and they just thought, "no big deal"?
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