God's Need for Loyalty?

[Skeptical]

I know that it has been argued and debated that God had to test Adam and Eve in order to see if they were loyal to him or not, but could the human race have gotten along alright if God didn't have the need to know what their loyalty was? Because it still hasn't been adequately explained as to why God needed to be sure of the first human pair's loyalty. However, it has only been dogmatically said that this is what God wanted. Therefore, could humankind had still been successful without a test of loyalty to God, or is this something that God needed to make himself feel more secure? Inquiring minds want to know.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue.

Where did you get that idea? That's certainly not biblical. That is like saying your doctor gave you cancer because he pointed out you had it. Death is the opposite of life, so what leads to death was an issue as soon as life was created; in other words long before the garden of eden even existed.



JW

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Wootah in post #5]
It seems they were being tested on what they would do with their freedom of choice. Obey and live or rebel and die.

Well, as I pointed out in my post #11, there never would have been an issue of rebelling and dying until God himself made that an issue.

Where did you get that idea? That's certainly not biblical. That is like saying your doctor gave you cancer because he pointed out you had it. Death is the opposite of life, so what leads to death was an issue as soon as life was created; in other words long before the garden of eden even existed.



JW

You're misunderstanding what I am saying. But I'll express it differently.

Adam and Eve did not know anything about rebelling against God and dying as a consequence of doing so. However, in Genesis 2:17, God is the one who presented this topic (what I meant by issue) to mankind's attention. However, they would have never known about this and would have just went on with their lives being happy and loving each other and loving God.

But to say that they would have actually gone awry if they didn't have the 'tree of knowledge' law, is just making stuff up because the Bible does not say that. And if I'm wrong, show me in the Bible where it says that.

[Skeptical]

... I was talking about is that humans would still function under God's laws and rules, but there not being an ultimatum by God.

So you are asking what the world would be like with divine law that carried no consequence ?

No, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Because as perfect beings, Adam and Eve would not have had any inclinations to go astray from God's law because they would obey God because it was their nature to do so according to Romans 2:14-15. Therefore, why was there even any need for a law or an edict by God with perfect Adam and Eve in the first place/

A world where God says (for exammle) : I don't want you to murder but if you do, I'm not going to do anything in response

I would think that would lead to wickedness flourishing and the weak and disadvantaged being oppressed. Much like today.

Um, you're putting words in my mouth. Because you are thinking from the viewpoint of a sinful and imperfect world.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
Its not a stawman, its that if you look at mankind's history your question has been answered that God doesn't need our loyalty but apparently you can't see it. It is us that need to be loyal to him if we want a better world.

So, I guess the scriptures that I quoted at Isaiah 55:11 and Job 2:3-5 don't apply to this? Yes, no?

The scriptures you quoted do not prove God needs loyalty. If the quote from Isaiah proves anything it is that what He WANTS to happen will happen.

So, could you explain to me what exactly what it was that God wanted to make happen?

Whatever you think He needed to happen. For every thought you have where you think that God needs something, throw it out.

lol But you didn't even answer my question. lol

I did. "Whatever you think He need to happen". Its right there.
[quote[

Not sure you point on Job. He was loyal but it doesn't say anywhere that Jehovah NEED his loyalty.

Well, perhaps this is something that the JWs at this forum don't know about. Or perhaps this is something that has changed over the years...

However, I found a kind of long article at jw.org that confirms what I am saying. But here is a quote from it that summarizes what I've been trying to say to you:

14. What can we learn from Job’s experience?

14 We too can acquire proper perspective and gain comfort from the account of Job. After all, Jehovah had it preserved “for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.” (Rom. 15:4) What is the lesson for us? Primarily this: Let us not become so absorbed in our own lives that we lose sight of this big issue—the vindication of Jehovah’s sovereignty. And let us appreciate that our role in this vital issue entails remaining faithful even under difficult circumstances, as did Job.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines ... vereignty/

How does this prove your point that God needs loyalty? He is using loyal people to make His case to vindicate His sovereignty but that is His choice.

I see. So, are you saying that God could choose another way to make His case to vindicate His sovereignty?
[/quote]
Of course.

And to vindicate it to whom?

To every living being, spiritual or physical. Though He doesn't need to but apparently wants to.

Also, you do know what the word "vindicate" means, right?

to clear, as from an accusation, imputation, suspicion, or the like:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/vindicate

But you're acting like its His only choice, but that is what you're reading into it but something that the article doesn't actually say.

So, what are His other choices? Please educate me.

Anything I say would be speculation. Debating speculation is a waste of time. Jehovah has chosen His way, so accept it or move on.

Are you aware what eisegesis is? Its where you make a statement then go find text and then claim it supports your statement. Is the article about that God needs loyalty? No. But you made it about that by prefacing it with your statement. This a flawed why to prove an argument.
https://www.gotquestions.org/exegesis-eisegesis.html

I know what eisegesis is. However, the jw.org article speaks for itself. You can even ask another JW about that. Also, how could God have vindicated himself without loyalty? Please educate me.

Good you know what eisegesis is. Again, the other ways would be speculation. Debating speculation is a waste of time. Jehovah has chosen His way, so debate the way He has chosen or move on.

It seems you're under the impression that God needs humans, angels, etc. They could all be gone tomorrow and Jehovah will keep going un-phased. There is no scripture that says God needs anything for His benefit, so that he can keep living, or needs anything at all.

Now you're leaning into strawman territory because I never said anything about God needing to keep on living. However, all the other things that you mentioned, I address them in this post.

With this statement, I still don't think you understand what a need is.

No... What I don't understand is why you said:

There is no scripture that says God needs anything for His benefit, so that he can keep living.

Because since God is supposed to be eternal, how does making that point add to what you're saying? How is that point even relevant? Unless you meant so that he could keep being happy, content, and satisfied. Because right now (especially during the Old Testament period with rebellious Israel) God doesn't seem content, happy, and satisfied. (Proverbs 27:11)

Why do you keep thinking that Jehovah needs something that benefits Him? No I didn't mean so that He can be 'happy, content and satisfied'. YOU have made these things up. You seem to want to put what you NEED on God. If you think Jehovah needs anything like you, clearly you nothing about Him. If you can't figure this out then read Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21 and 1 Corinthians 1:27 as to why you can't. To fix it read James 4:10. I can't help you.

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam and Eve did not know anything about rebelling against God and dying as a consequence of doing so.

How do you know that, were you there? There's no scripture that says that Adam and Eve did not know anything about rebelling against God and dying as a consequence of doing so. You just made that up. All we know for sure is they did not rebellion, it is your assumption they knew nothing about rebellion and death. It could well be they knew about it but they had no desire to rebellion and even less a desire to die. Once one is conscient of being alive one can conceive of not being so.

... in Genesis 2:17, God is the one who presented this topic (what I meant by issue) to mankind's attention.

Again you don't know this. All we know is that God placed a law upon them, the topic of rebellion and death could have been on Adam's mind even before. You cannot prove otherwise.

.. they would have never known about this and would have just went on with their lives being happy and loving each other and loving God.

You don't know that; you're making things up and stating them as fact. Show me a scripture that states they were incapable of independent rebellion? They had minds of their own and could therefore had decided to stop loving God, rebell and become unhappy as a consequence, any time they wanted.

[Skeptical]

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]

So, could you explain to me what exactly what it was that God wanted to make happen?

Whatever you think He needed to happen. For every thought you have where you think that God needs something, throw it out.

lol But you didn't even answer my question. lol

I did. "Whatever you think He need to happen". Its right there.

No, thats not an answer. That's just a pushy dogmatic statement which is basically just telling me that I'm wrong and that I should just shut up.

But you're acting like its His only choice, but that is what you're reading into it but something that the article doesn't actually say.

[Replying to Skeptical in post #10]
So, what are His other choices? Please educate me.

Anything I say would be speculation. Debating speculation is a waste of time. Jehovah has chosen His way, so accept it or move on.

I came to this forum to have adult conversations; however, your answers are becoming very childish and disingenuous. Therefore, debating with you is a waste of time. So, if you don't mind, could you not answer my questions at this forum?

[Skeptical]

Adam and Eve did not know anything about rebelling against God and dying as a consequence of doing so.

How do you know that, were you there? There's no scripture that says that Adam and Eve did not know anything about rebelling against God and dying as a consequence of doing so. You just made that up. All we know for sure is they did not rebellion, it is your assumption they knew nothing about rebellion and death. It could well be they knew about it but they had no desire to rebellion and even less a desire to die. Once one is conscient of being alive one can conceive of not being so.

First of all, you should preview and proof read your posts before posting them because some of the stuff you said, I could only guess what you meant (e.g. All we know for sure is they did not rebellion = All we know for sure is they did not want to rebel?, but they had no desire to rebellion = but they had no desire to rebel?, and I guess this is just a misspelling: Once one is conscient = Once one is conscious). But if I am correct in what you were trying to say, then let's go with that. Therefore, my question is: So, then why did God decide to give them the edict of the tree of knowledge?

... in Genesis 2:17, God is the one who presented this topic (what I meant by issue) to mankind's attention.

Again you don't know this.

Huh? But isn't that scriptural?

All we know is that God placed a law upon them, the topic of rebellion and death could have been on Adam's mind even before. You cannot prove otherwise.

So, now who's speculating and making stuff up? Plus, I would say that Genesis 3:1-3 basically dismantles your made-up speculation:

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”

However, she didn't say something like, 'Oh, we know that we may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but we realize that we must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and we must not touch it, or we will die.'

Also, how could the "the topic of rebellion and death...have been on Adam's mind even before" and how in the world could he have figured out on his own that eating from the tree of knowledge is what would have made him and his wife rebel against God and die????

.. they would have never known about this and would have just went on with their lives being happy and loving each other and loving God.

You don't know that; you're making things up and stating them as fact. Show me a scrioture that they were incapable of independent rebellion?

Show me a scripture that they were?

They had minds of their own and could therefore had decided to stop loving God, rebell and become unhappy as a consequence any time they wanted.

Without any incentive? Could have, would have, should have? Because the Bible clearly explains why they rebelled and how they rebelled. And it clearly shows that it was because of the serpent's prompting (incentive). Plus, 2 Corinthians 11:3 says so too. Therefore, what you are saying is completely unscriptual.

[JehovahsWitness]

...why did God decide to give them the edict of the tree of knowledge?

I don't know, I'm not a mind reader and I'm not God. The bible does not say. Would you like me to speculate?

[JehovahsWitness]

Without any incentive?

JAMES 1: 14, 15

“Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.”

[Skeptical]

...why did God decide to give them the edict of the tree of knowledge?

I don't know, I'm not a mind reader and I'm not God. The bible does not say. Would you like me to speculate?

No need to speculate because the reason is that Adam and Eve would not have known on their own about the law of the tree of knowledge... They weren't mind readers.