why would god create something that can resist him?

[soadnot]

Why would god create something that would resist him?
IE satan, athiests, other religions

[AClockWorkOrange]

*Sigh*

Using our brains to overcome an obsticle is not transcending natural limits.

The ability to fly on a plane is not defying gravity, it is using principles of lift, and aerodynamics.

We arnet transcedning limits, we are using our minds to understand the world enough that we could use the rules of physics in our favor.

If we could hover with no external help in a standard environment, like... Colorado Springs, then THAT is transcending natural limits, becuase our naked bodies cant do that in an environnemt with such gravity like Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA, Earth.

Using a machine which harnesses lift, or forces gas at a high velocity at the ground to lift the subject off the ground is not a miracle or transcending limits.

AND the limits DONT change, we just finds ways in which to work in them.

Man has ALWAYS had the capability to fly becuase air has always been with man. We just needed to figure out how to use it.

[Metatron]

Using our brains to overcome an obsticle is not transcending natural limits.

Obviously, we are using different definitions for the term "natural limits".

The ability to fly on a plane is not defying gravity, it is using principles of lift, and aerodynamics.

The example given was the ability to fly not the ability to defy gravity. These are not the same thing.

We arnet transcedning limits, we are using our minds to understand the world enough that we could use the rules of physics in our favor.

If we could hover with no external help in a standard environment, like... Colorado Springs, then THAT is transcending natural limits, becuase our naked bodies cant do that in an environnemt with such gravity like Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA, Earth.

I fail to see why you think the meat puppet that surrounds your brain is the only part of you that is natural. If your brain, part of nature, overcomes a previous limitation through ingenuity and inventiveness, how is a natural limitation not being exceeded or nullified? For all we know, a naked man may some day be capable of levitating in Colorado Springs when our understanding of gravity increases. Will the "natural limitation" not have been exceeded if we were required to implant graviton generators in our bodies or is supernaturalism the only way to push a natural limitation?

Using a machine which harnesses lift, or forces gas at a high velocity at the ground to lift the subject off the ground is not a miracle or transcending limits.

AND the limits DONT change, we just finds ways in which to work in them.

Man has ALWAYS had the capability to fly becuase air has always been with man. We just needed to figure out how to use it.

By that logic, maybe man has ALWAYS had the capability to teleport to Alpha Centauri, turn the moon into swiss cheese, or cause a star to go nova. We just haven't figured out how to do that yet. And when we do, more "natural limits" will have been exceeded.

[sledheavy]

If not freedom, why not freedom of choice? I could be either far more intricate, or just as simple.

[Greatest I Am]

Sticking a man in a plane that flies does not transcend the natural limit of a man.
It is man's natural limit to sit.
It is a planes natural limit to fly.
When man can fly without the plane then he will have exceeded his natural limit.
Nothing can exceed it's natural limit.

Regards
DL

I see no reason why the term "natural limit" has to be confined to the purely physical aspects of our bodies. Isn't our brains natural. Why are the products of our mind not natural? If we use our minds to transcend a former natural barrier (the ability to fly, travel in space, organ replacement, etc.), why does that not count as "transcending a natural limit"?

GIA wrote
No one excluded the mind, it also has natural limits. I had a telepathic experience, you do not need to show that we have yet to find all our natural limits. They must manifest though if they are to be used.

You seem to think that we would have to actually grow wings to transcend nature. That seems silly to me. But just for amusement, let's do a little speculation. What if someday we colonize a low gravity planet and bio-engineer wings to allow us to fly on this new planet. Will we have "transcended nature" now that we can fly bodily? We STILL would have accomplished this feat via the use of our minds not through magically growing wings. I see no fundamental difference between using our minds to grow wings and using our minds to build us an airplane to fly in. In both cases, we have transcended a former natural limit through the use of the products of our minds.

No.
The tools that we invent have their own natural limits. We do not absorb them somehow when we use them.
As to growing wings, if we can do it by whatever means then where have we defied natural limits. To exceed natural limit is probably impossible because to exceed the status quo would just move the bar of knowledge of the new status quo.

Regards
DL

Then I submit that your seeming definition of "natural limits" is itself so limited as to make it effectively worthless. What does it matter if man uses his mind to overcome a previous limitation or magically acquires the means to overcome it? In either case, the former limitation has been nullified or surpassed. We overcome "natural limits" all of the time. There will always be new "natural limits" to overcome in the future. That's what evolution, both in a biological sense and a scientific sense, is all about.

Exactly, but wherever the new limit is, it will now answer to the name of natural limit. Today, yesterday and tomorrow. Just as what we are today.

It is not worthless, it is the new limit.

Regards
DL

I didn't claim that there would be no natural limits. I believe way back in this thread Bernie made the point that these natural limits are an evolving thing. A natural limit can be transcended perhaps creating a new natural limit which may be transcended itself in the future. A natural limit is a goal to be surpassed.

If it can be.

Take running.
Look how long it took to get to the 3 minute mile.
Soon after they were breaking the record all over the place.
It has now reached it's new range and stays there unless drugs are used as enhancers. The new limit may never be surpassed but we try.

Regards
DL

[AClockWorkOrange]

Obviously, we are using different definitions for the term "natural limits".

What is possible for a creature to do.

The example given was the ability to fly not the ability to defy gravity. These are not the same thing.

No, they are not. Flying is possible. Thus, within our limits, since i consider my brain to be part of me. To be natural. So whatever my brain can do or engineer to allow me to do things, that is within my limits.

fail to see why you think the meat puppet that surrounds your brain is the only part of you that is natural.

No, i dont. Whatever my brain is capable of, i consider to be my natural limits. I include my brain with my body, not exhalt it as a miracle worker.

If your brain, part of nature, overcomes a previous limitation through ingenuity and inventiveness, how is a natural limitation not being exceeded or nullified?

No, unless you have a cyber brain, then your brain is as natural as you. Your brain possesses the greatest potential of you. Whatever that brain can do, is a reflection of your own potential and the limits of you. It doesnt defy our limits.

For all we know, a naked man may some day be capable of levitating in Colorado Springs when our understanding of gravity increases. Will the "natural limitation" not have been exceeded if we were required to implant graviton generators in our bodies or is supernaturalism the only way to push a natural limitation?

Literally, yes, only supernaturalism can push natural limits.

Thats its definition.

If we could build something that displaced gravity, we obviously would have to find an existant, real, and applicable methodolgy to do it. Real=Natural.

And once again, this isnt pushing past natural limits. At best, its redifining our illusion of what our limitations are.

By that logic, maybe man has ALWAYS had the capability to teleport to Alpha Centauri, turn the moon into swiss cheese, or cause a star to go nova. We just haven't figured out how to do that yet. And when we do, more "natural limits" will have been exceeded.

Haha, only if it happens. And wont YOU be red faced. [/quote]

[Metatron]

Obviously, we are using different definitions for the term "natural limits".

What is possible for a creature to do.

The example given was the ability to fly not the ability to defy gravity. These are not the same thing.

No, they are not. Flying is possible. Thus, within our limits, since i consider my brain to be part of me. To be natural. So whatever my brain can do or engineer to allow me to do things, that is within my limits.

fail to see why you think the meat puppet that surrounds your brain is the only part of you that is natural.

No, i dont. Whatever my brain is capable of, i consider to be my natural limits. I include my brain with my body, not exhalt it as a miracle worker.

If your brain, part of nature, overcomes a previous limitation through ingenuity and inventiveness, how is a natural limitation not being exceeded or nullified?

No, unless you have a cyber brain, then your brain is as natural as you. Your brain possesses the greatest potential of you. Whatever that brain can do, is a reflection of your own potential and the limits of you. It doesn't defy our limits.

For all we know, a naked man may some day be capable of levitating in Colorado Springs when our understanding of gravity increases. Will the "natural limitation" not have been exceeded if we were required to implant graviton generators in our bodies or is supernaturalism the only way to push a natural limitation?

Literally, yes, only supernaturalism can push natural limits.

Thats its definition.

If we could build something that displaced gravity, we obviously would have to find an existent, real, and applicable methodology to do it. Real=Natural.

And once again, this isn't pushing past natural limits. At best, its redefining our illusion of what our limitations are.

By that logic, maybe man has ALWAYS had the capability to teleport to Alpha Centauri, turn the moon into swiss cheese, or cause a star to go nova. We just haven't figured out how to do that yet. And when we do, more "natural limits" will have been exceeded.

Haha, only if it happens. And wont YOU be red faced.

Well then if what the mind can accomplish fits within the definition of natural limits then theoretically there are NO natural limits or at the very least they are far beyond our current understanding of them since we have no idea what the limits of man's inventiveness and ingenuity are. We may some day levitate your Colorado Springs man or transform the moon into swiss cheese through atomic re-arrangement with atomic scale nanobots (though why we would want to I don't know). Almost makes the question of natural limits moot.

[AClockWorkOrange]

yeah, that whole "skys the limit" thing of science centers around this.

My whole veiw expressed is optimism on crack.

The things we do are physically possible, by definition, duh.

There are impossible things, (supernatural) things) like making... idont know.... the earth a square and then back into a sphere(ish) shape. Or, make it jump backword in time, and everyone becomes a unicorn with no mechanization, just willing it.

That is supernatural, and for all i know, limited by nature.

We just try to advance within the realm of possiblity.


(which is why turning rocks to cheese is so hard, since alchemy is pretty bogus)

[spiritletter]

You mean, did the Bible's authors need a literary character to embody evil?

[Greatest I Am]

You mean, did the Bible's authors need a literary character to embody evil?

Be there a need or not, they did.

Regards
DL

[MikeH]

Why would god create something that would resist him?
IE satan, athiests, other religions

He's obviously not the deranged control freak that people make Him out to be.